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Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:47 am

given even flight or fight...12 times?
really?

i can see 1 or 2...m,aybe as far as 3 or 4 before his brain kicked in over instincts and reactions, but 12?

i think the bullied kid had a right to defend himself, but there is a difference between fighting back and using a knife that either you had with you all day at school, or got on a bus.... (according to one of the articles
Saavedra showed a pocket knife to two teens on the bus that afternoon.
that shows he had it with him already, and was showing it off)

premeditated defense for me is learning how to defend yourself so you arent just screaming and waving your arms

the other thing that is important (at least to me) is what kind of knife?
if it was a little swiss army 2 blade thingy, then ok i can see a 14 yr old carrying that...hell i had one with me almost all the time when i was growing up cause i was in scouts and went camping all the time
but i NEVER had it at school
if i needed a weapon, i could have used my backpack full of books, rocks or something i picked up, or anything else around
i never felt the need to carry a weapon from home, even during late elementary and in middle school where i would get in fights about once every two months and get the shit beat out of me cause i couldnt fight back that well

im all for defending yourself, but honestly there HAS to be a line SOMEWHERE
what happens if another 14-16 yr old gets bullied, and pulls out a handgun?
or will it take an 9-11 yr old doing this before ppl think "OH SHIT WTF"

facts are:
the bullied kid carried a weapon with him, and showed it to friends on the bus
he did try to avoid the conflict by getting off his bus several stops early and running away

the dead kid did chase after him and punched him in the back of the head (which is a whole other issue...if you are looking to just beat the crap out of someone, tackle them and ground&pound...dont try to kill them by targeting one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body)

after being attacked, the kid pulled out said knife and stabbed his attacker 12 times in the face and chest

did he deserve to defend himself? yes
do i think being bullied give someone the right to carry a weapon to school? no way in hell
does this qualify as premeditated murder? i doubt it
should the kid get off scot-free? imho...no

he defended himself, but through an escalation of force, and to a very large extent
he was retreating, he should have done enough to get away and stop the confrontation and done just that....got away

i dont feel he deserves to be charged with murder...i say manslaughter is enough, and manslaughter, iirc, is defined as the taking of a life through an unplanned, unintentional fashion

we will never know if the kid had planned to use the knife on his attacker, so we cant show premeditation
he did carry the weapon, and he did use it excessively
that all points to at very least assault with a deadly weapon

btw, i was bullied pretty much my entire life until i was in hs, when i got suspended for a week for fighting and giving the other kid a concussion ( <-- is just to show where i am coming from)

TL:DR
i am all for a bullying victim standing up for themselves, but to bring a weapon to school, and using it with excessive force to take a life is over the line.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:47 am

Brekkie wrote:Exactly. Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This isn't. Not even close.

According to the article, there were 12 stabs to the chest, two of which were mortal wounds, and one of which pierced the heart. There were all kinds of kids around who were witnessing this, and I somehow doubt they would have just stood around if the kid was choking him out or something actually life-threatening. But who is gonna interfere once there is a knife involved and he's going all jack the ripper on the bully?

Are you kidding me? How many schoolyard fights have other kids joining in? None I've been in. They'd rather form a circle around the two people fighting rather than join in. The number one problem with people watching an altercation is that everyone thinks someone ELSE will do something, and yet no one ever reacts because they're all thinking the exact same thing.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:51 am

Yes, absolutely. You should stand up for yourself. If you aren't strong enough to do it yourself, you enlist friends, you go to the authorities that exist for exactly these reasons, you talk to your parents.

You don't KILL.
I'm sorry, but I don't care how mean he was to you, or how much your feelings got hurt or whatever. Any reaction that results in a DEAD CHILD is unacceptable to me.

Especially cause the stabber never went to his teachers, never went to school authorities, he never went to his parents. Instead, he skipped school, and then brought a deadly weapon and ended a life that had barely begun.

I'm in the military. I believe there are things worth fighting for. But it is also a cornerstone of my worldview that killing is the option of absolute last resort. Undergoing personal hardship is, by its self, not enough to grant you license to end lives.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Blackharon » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:52 am

Nikachelle wrote:. They'd rather form a circle around the two people fighting and film it with their cell phones rather than join in.


Fixed. I'm sure that there was at least 1 video of this fight the judge saw.


Brekkie wrote:Especially cause the stabber never went to his teachers, never went to school authorities, he never went to his parents.


Are you sure he didn't? It's hard to believe a projectile on the bus in an earlier incident between the two went completely unnoticed by the driver who is an authority figure. How many other incidents were public and at least observed by their authority figures?
Last edited by Blackharon on Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Amirya » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:54 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Exactly. Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This isn't. Not even close.

According to the article, there were 12 stabs to the chest, two of which were mortal wounds, and one of which pierced the heart. There were all kinds of kids around who were witnessing this, and I somehow doubt they would have just stood around if the kid was choking him out or something actually life-threatening. But who is gonna interfere once there is a knife involved and he's going all jack the ripper on the bully?

Are you kidding me? How many schoolyard fights have other kids joining in? None I've been in. They'd rather form a circle around the two people fighting rather than join in. The number one problem with people watching an altercation is that everyone thinks someone ELSE will do something, and yet no one ever reacts because they're all thinking the exact same thing.

Schoolyard fights not only usually have the witnesses standing by, I saw several in high school where the crowd was cheering on the combatants. The other alternative is that the witnesses join in and gang up on the underdog/loser - the whole pack mentality.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:56 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Exactly. Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This isn't. Not even close.

According to the article, there were 12 stabs to the chest, two of which were mortal wounds, and one of which pierced the heart. There were all kinds of kids around who were witnessing this, and I somehow doubt they would have just stood around if the kid was choking him out or something actually life-threatening. But who is gonna interfere once there is a knife involved and he's going all jack the ripper on the bully?

Are you kidding me? How many schoolyard fights have other kids joining in? None I've been in. They'd rather form a circle around the two people fighting rather than join in. The number one problem with people watching an altercation is that everyone thinks someone ELSE will do something, and yet no one ever reacts because they're all thinking the exact same thing.


I've dove into and broken up fights before, and every fight I ever saw in school that took place in front of the general community was quickly pulled apart too.
Maybe the culture in schools where I grew up was just a lot different.

To be honest most schoolhouse fights aren't real fights to begin with. You just want the other guy to man the fluff up and face you, and then land a couple solid punches each and then after that you're best friends. The absolute worst thing you can do in a schoolhouse fight is run away from it in my experience.

p.s. GIRL FIGHTS, on the other hand, are Serious Business... they claw for eyes and rip out hair.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:00 am

Brekkie wrote:Yes, absolutely. You should stand up for yourself. If you aren't strong enough to do it yourself, you enlist friends, you go to the authorities that exist for exactly these reasons, you talk to your parents.

You don't KILL.
I'm sorry, but I don't care how mean he was to you, or how much your feelings got hurt or whatever. Any reaction that results in a DEAD CHILD is unacceptable to me.

Especially cause the stabber never went to his teachers, never went to school authorities, he never went to his parents. Instead, he skipped school, and then brought a deadly weapon and ended a life that had barely begun.

He skipped school to AVOID the other guy and being on the same bus with him.

Again, you're putting on too many impressions of what you feel on the situation. Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself) didn't feel comfortable reporting the incidents. And we have no idea why. Maybe he's not close with his parents, or his teachers - or didn't feel like telling authorities for any NUMBER of reasons.

And enough with the deadly weapon crap. How do we know it wasn't a swiss army knife? I couldn't find anything that said what kind of blade it was. Might've been a gift from his father for all we know. Loads of people carry them. And if it was a swiss army knife, I can see why he had to stab the guy 12 times to make him stop.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:02 am

Nikachelle wrote:Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself)


Doesn't mean he didn't kill someone.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby cerwillis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:04 am

Where I grew up, the bully would beat the victim senseless while a group of other kids would cheer particularly good punches. Attempting to intervene would undoubtably make you the next target. I would stab the fuck out of that kid.

Last resort eh Brekkie? How on earth do you reconcile that with the fact that you have a job where you could be sent to jail if you don't kill when ordered to?

I think I'm done here.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 am

Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself)


Doesn't mean he didn't kill someone.

In this situation, calling the defender a killer makes him seem guilty of pre-meditated murder and aggravated assault. Which is not what I feel.

But whatever. Make sure you stick your nose in and don't contribute anything at all to the conversation.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:09 am

swiss army knife = 3 in blade?

anyone know enough about anatomy to be able to say how deep the heart is?
cause 2 of the stab wounds went deep enough to nick the heart

and really, how many of us if we were beating someone up would still beat on them after getting stabbed once?
maybe im just in the same boat as brekkie...there are thinks worth fighting for, but getting bullied isnt enough to justify killing in my book
esp killing an unarmed attacker through 12 stabs to the face and chest



edit:
what does brekkies job have anything to do with his beliefs?
he said i view killing as a last resort...not as something he hasnt or wouldnt do if needed to
the way i read it is if there is a way to avoid bloodshed, he will take that
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:10 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Yes, absolutely. You should stand up for yourself. If you aren't strong enough to do it yourself, you enlist friends, you go to the authorities that exist for exactly these reasons, you talk to your parents.

You don't KILL.
I'm sorry, but I don't care how mean he was to you, or how much your feelings got hurt or whatever. Any reaction that results in a DEAD CHILD is unacceptable to me.

Especially cause the stabber never went to his teachers, never went to school authorities, he never went to his parents. Instead, he skipped school, and then brought a deadly weapon and ended a life that had barely begun.

He skipped school to AVOID the other guy and being on the same bus with him.

Again, you're putting on too many impressions of what you feel on the situation. Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself) didn't feel comfortable reporting the incidents. And we have no idea why. Maybe he's not close with his parents, or his teachers - or didn't feel like telling authorities for any NUMBER of reasons.

And enough with the deadly weapon crap. How do we know it wasn't a swiss army knife? I couldn't find anything that said what kind of blade it was. Might've been a gift from his father for all we know. Loads of people carry them. And if it was a swiss army knife, I can see why he had to stab the guy 12 times to make him stop.


The reason I brought up him skipping school is because it demonstrates a pattern of him not handling conflict in a healthy way.

And in no way is ANY "feelings" justification of killing. Maybe he didn't "feel comfortable" talking to anyone or going to any of the numerous adults who could have resolved the problem. In that case, well, tough cookies, sucks to be him. Learn do what you have to do to face your problems. "I don't FEEL like I can talk to anybody about this" doesn't justify or naturally lead to "I'm in my rights to end his life".

A swiss army knife is indeed a deadly weapon. It's a blade. Just because it looks cutesy and we use them to whittle in boy scouts doesn't change that fact in the slightest.

Are you telling me that if someone stabbed YOU in the CHEST even ONCE, no matter how small the blade was, that you WOULDN'T stop?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Flex » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:11 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Flex wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Clearly the "killer" (and I don't actually mean that, he was defending himself)


Doesn't mean he didn't kill someone.

In this situation, calling the defender a killer makes him seem guilty of pre-meditated murder and aggravated assault. Which is not what I feel.

But whatever. Make sure you stick your nose in and don't contribute anything at all to the conversation.


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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:12 am

bldavis wrote:swiss army knife = 3 in blade?

anyone know enough about anatomy to be able to say how deep the heart is?
cause 2 of the stab wounds went deep enough to nick the heart

and really, how many of us if we were beating someone up would still beat on them after getting stabbed once?
maybe im just in the same boat as brekkie...there are thinks worth fighting for, but getting bullied isnt enough to justify killing in my book
esp killing an unarmed attacker through 12 stabs to the face and chest



edit:
what does brekkies job have anything to do with his beliefs?
he said i view killing as a last resort...not as something he hasnt or wouldnt do if needed to
the way i read it is if there is a way to avoid bloodshed, he will take that


Just a note - he wasn't stabbed in the face. He was stabbed in the chest and abdomen. (You've said face twice now, I just wanted to correct it.)
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Arnock » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:15 am

I think a lot of us are discounting the fact that the attacker was hitting the defender in the back of the head, which can EASILY become a fatal blow.


Are you telling me that if someone stabbed YOU in the CHEST even ONCE, no matter how small the blade was, that you WOULDN'T stop?


The thing is, we don't know how the fight played out, perhaps the 12 stabs were in quick succession where the attacker didn't have a chance to back off or defend himself, perhaps the first few cuts were superficial scratches that only made the attacker more angry.

We're all making a LOT of assumptions and extrapolating pretty far based on very little information.


Y'all are posting too fast, I can't actually post anything >.<
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