Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:37 am

Brekkie wrote:-Supposedly the two kids challenged each other to a fight while on the bus, but Saavedra got off on an earlier stop and tried to run away. The other kid chased him, caught up, and the had a scuffle, at which point Saavedra drew his knife and stabbed the other kid 12 times in the chest and heart.

Based on that right there... yeah, the other guy had it coming. He was chased, punched in the back of the head by his attacker, and then reacted.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Arnock » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:42 am

Whether or not the kid brought the knife to school is irrelevant. After taking clear steps to try to avoid the fight(getting off at an earlier stop, attempting to run away, etc.) the older kid still attacked him, so he reacted in self defense with the means that he had available.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:50 am

I guess I have trouble with the idea that if someone lays their hands on you it grants carte blanc to do anything you want in retribution, up to and including stabbing them in the chest more times than Julius Caesar.
By no means am I condoning assault, but come on! At some point common sense has to kick in and say "whoah dude, that's going too far."

A fist fight, while hardly pleasant to lose, is not even close to seriously dangerous or life threatening. Particularly between untrained and not particularly strong teenagers. To me, the "danger" inherent in being in such a fight in no way justifies the fact that an otherwise innocent child is now dead. Kids who punch other kids get detention, not 12 stabbings to the heart.

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This is me in the aftermath of a fight one Halloween when I was a teenager. It went about as badly for me as it is possible for a teenage fist fight to go. It was 3 of us verses 12 of them. I came out with bruises and blood all over my face and dazed from the knocks to the head. And then I was fine. Did it suck? Sure. Did I fight back? Of course, and I gave as good as I got.
But I NEVER in a million years would dream that I had the RIGHT to KILL one of those other kids.
it honestly blows my mind that so many people are OK with that. Death and killing is serious shit...
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:04 am

It's still hard to speculate without having heard the testimony that the judge did. 

The judge seems pretty convinced that the kid did not want to fight.  The judge believes that he got off the bus early, he fled when he got off the bus and the other kid pursued, he even tried to get away when the fight was going on.  The judge is also convinced that the attack was serious, not your basic rough housing but a legitimate attempt to beat the kid up, which is potentially dangerous. 

I think you can make the argument that it should have at least gone to a jury, but I can see the judge's perspective too.  Again without being privy to the testimony from the witnesses and stuff it's really hard to say.

 

 
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Dapaladin » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:07 am

This is kind of a general statement but it's what i believe and why i believe these sort of things happen. The biggest problem with the world today is we all have this horrible view of beating the snot out of each other is small altercations (throwing fists, wrestling on the ground etc). Especially in schools where bullying is an issue. If someone attacks you physically you can report it to a teacher and they go to the principals office and the kid gets suspended or whatever. If someone attacks you verbally they might be able to do something for you but probably not. You are taught to ignore the abuser and move on with your life. I do understand that you can't have people beating the snot out of each other all the time as it creates kind of a hectic environment but I'd rather have fist fights in schools everyday rather then shootings once a month or however often they happen. I mean in reality people do crazy things because they are told that they shouldn't react when people try to push their buttons until one day when the "pot boils over" and the person just loses it and like in this case stabs a kid 12 times in the chest.

Parenting these days isn't teaching your kids how to stand up for themselves but how to rat out those who pick on you to authorities. And the law stands behind this. Human beings aren't perfect little machines that don't need to vent frustrations and anger generally on whoever is creating those emotions in you. You end up feeling better in the end and the other person (assuming you kicked his/her ass) won't have enjoyed getting his/her ass beat and won't be tormenting you anytime soon.

Mmmmm yeah i dunno i just think people need to get into fights more to avoid greater escalations.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Shyrtandros » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:12 am

Based on what information I see in the thread it appears the kid attempted flight and when that didn't work stress & adrenaline probably kicked in and the kid was no longer in control - instincts where.

That doesn't change the fact that there are "supposed" to be laws in place to punish people who use excessive force, for example if I kid the guy in the balls and he drops to the ground and he is no longer a threat.. It’s not okay for me to bash his face in with my boots..


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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:13 am

Fridmarr wrote:It's still hard to speculate without having heard the testimony that the judge did. 

The judge seems pretty convinced that the kid did not want to fight.  The judge believes that he got off the bus early, he fled when he got off the bus and the other kid pursued, he even tried to get away when the fight was going on.  The judge is also convinced that the attack was serious, not your basic rough housing but a legitimate attempt to beat the kid up, which is potentially dangerous. 

I think you can make the argument that it should have at least gone to a jury, but I can see the judge's perspective too.  Again without being privy to the testimony from the witnesses and stuff it's really hard to say.
 


See, I agree with all of this.

Except I don't think any of it justifies stabbing another child with a knife.
And even if it DID, are they seriously gonna claim that the other kid didn't get the message after the FIRST stab to the heart, and needed to be stabbed an ADDITIONAL 11 TIMES in "self-defense"?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:16 am

Shyrtandros wrote:I would like to remind everyone of the "Fight-or-flight response"

Based on what information I see in the thread it appears the kid attempted flight and when that didn't work stress & adrenalin probably kicked in and the kid was no longer in control - instincts where.

That doesn't change the fact that there are "supposed" to be laws in place to punish people who use excessive force, for example if I kid the guy in the balls and he drops to the ground and he is no longer a threat.. it's not okay for me to bash his face in with my boots..


Fight-or-Flight adrenaline rush doesn't make you lose control over your actions. Nor does it excuse you from responsibility for what you do.
That is just ridiculous.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Eltiana » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:19 am

Brekkie wrote:See, I agree with all of this.

Except I don't think any of it justifies stabbing another child with a knife.
And even if it DID, are they seriously gonna claim that the other kid didn't get the message after the FIRST stab to the heart, and needed to be stabbed an ADDITIONAL 11 TIMES in "self-defense"?

Adrenaline. When you're in the moment, you aren't really thinking logically of what is 'enough' It's the same reason you see people in movies waste bullets shooting at someone who is obviously dead at that point.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:19 am

Fights between almost anyone can be very dangerous.  We had a kid in our school get seriously injured in a fight, when he was on the ground he got kicked in the head a few times.  He fully recovered but had to be life flighted to the regional trauma center, so they could drill a hole in his skull to allow room for his brain to swell.
 

I can think of a few more notorious cases where people died or were maimed as a result of punch (usually their head hitting the ground after a punch was the main culprit). 

 

 

 
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:28 am

Eltiana wrote:
Brekkie wrote:See, I agree with all of this.

Except I don't think any of it justifies stabbing another child with a knife.
And even if it DID, are they seriously gonna claim that the other kid didn't get the message after the FIRST stab to the heart, and needed to be stabbed an ADDITIONAL 11 TIMES in "self-defense"?

Adrenaline. When you're in the moment, you aren't really thinking logically of what is 'enough' It's the same reason you see people in movies waste bullets shooting at someone who is obviously dead at that point.


You BETTER think about what is enough. Apply that defense to, say, a rape case, and see how terrible that logic is. "Well, you see your honor, I was just in the moment, and adrenaline was pumping, and I wasn't thinking logically about where to stop or what was inappropriate or unethical. So you can't hold me accountable for my actions."

And your movie metaphor just has me baffled. It has no comparison. Beyond the fallacy of comparing behavior in movies to real life, the behavior you describe isn't inherently illogical like the topic. If you shoot at someone in the first place, it's because they were worth killing. And if they were worth killing, they are worth ensuring they die. You can't make anyone "Too" dead.

Fridmarr wrote:Fights between almost anyone can be very dangerous. We had a kid in our school get seriously injured in a fight, when he was on the ground he got kicked in the head a few times. He fully recovered but had to be life flighted to the regional trauma center, so they could drill a hole in his skull to allow room for his brain to swell.


I can think of a few more notorious cases where people died or were maimed as a result of punch (usually their head hitting the ground after a punch was the main culprit).


So a few notorious accidents out of thousands and thousands of fist fights that go on every day?

Someone shoving me in a Black Friday check-out queue can be considered assault. And it's within the realm of possibility that by some misfortune I could happen to slip and my head could happen to hit the ground in such a way that I could get seriously injured. So what you are saying is that the next time someone shoves me in a check-out line I am fully justified to pull out my Beretta 9mm Pistol and shoot them in the face?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:33 am

Brekkie wrote:See, I agree with all of this.

Except I don't think any of it justifies stabbing another child with a knife.
And even if it DID, are they seriously gonna claim that the other kid didn't get the message after the FIRST stab to the heart, and needed to be stabbed an ADDITIONAL 11 TIMES in "self-defense"?

How do you know that the other kid didn't have his hands around the other guy's throat and was squeezing? How do you know that the first blow didn't do enough damage? There's nothing saying that the first stab wound hit the heart - maybe the last one did, and that's the blow that finally stopped him. (What I read said ONE of the stab wounds knicked the heart, the others didn't.)

You're really reading too much into this about stuff that we do not KNOW. We don't know the situation, we don't know how severe the previous conflicts were between the two guys.

Edit: And on the rape topic. How would you feel if this was a rape case and the would-be rape victim killed their attacker? I think you'd suddenly be more in favour of the victim than the rapist.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:43 am

Exactly. Because rape is a more serious crime. A crime much more proportional with deadly force in self-defense.

This isn't. Not even close.

According to the article, there were 12 stabs to the chest, two of which were mortal wounds, and one of which pierced the heart. There were all kinds of kids around who were witnessing this, and I somehow doubt they would have just stood around if the kid was choking him out or something actually life-threatening. But who is gonna interfere once there is a knife involved and he's going all jack the ripper on the bully?

This is setting a terrible precedent. Imagine this exact same situation occurring again, only with no witnesses this time. All anyone needs to do is claim they "feel" like they were threatened in order to get away with murder.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby cerwillis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:44 am

Brekkie,
Aren't you the one that is always saying how if you are in a bad situation it's up to you to stand up for yourself and handle your business?

This kid may have known that if he tried to fight back with his fists, it would just ensure a more thorough beating, so he did what he had to do to make it stop. And guess what? It did, didn't it?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Blackharon » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:46 am

Fridmarr wrote:Fights between almost anyone can be very dangerous.  We had a kid in our school get seriously injured in a fight, when he was on the ground he got kicked in the head a few times.  He fully recovered but had to be life flighted to the regional trauma center, so they could drill a hole in his skull to allow room for his brain to swell.
 

I can think of a few more notorious cases where people died or were maimed as a result of punch (usually their head hitting the ground after a punch was the main culprit). 
 


A preteen in my high school was paralyzed after an unarmed bully stomped his neck while he was on the ground. Brandishing a knife, and even using it seems justified to me especially in the light of the fact that he tried to run away first.

12 stab wounds seems excessive, but there were the two other male teens that were taunting him on the bus earlier chasing him as well? If so, then 12 stabs would be exactly what I would expect so the others would certainly think twice before throwing their punches. The articles also don't note how bad the 10 non-fatal stabbings were and when in the sequence of blows the occurred. It's entirely possible that the first 10 were scratches and didn't do anything to slow the attacker down.

In the end, this is a very sad story and another reason I'll do my very best to teach my son to respect others. If Dylan respected Saavedra in the first place, both would be happily playing with christmas presents today.
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