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Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

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Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:01 am

Collier judge upholds 'Stand your ground' defense in teen's bus stop stabbing death

By VICTORIA MACCHI
Posted January 3, 2012 at 2:05 p.m.


NAPLES — A 15-year-old who stabbed a classmate to death will not face murder charges.

A Collier judge has upheld the "Stand your ground" defense in the case of Jorge Saavedra, who stabbed Dylan Nuno to death last January at a Golden Gate Estates bus stop.

Dylan Nuno's mother, Kim Maxwell, called Collier Circuit Judge Lauren Brodie's decision "unbelievable."

The State Attorney's Office has confirmed prosecutors will not appeal the case.

"We’ve reviewed the decision. There does not appear to be any issues to appeal," said Samantha Syoen, spokeswoman for the State Attorney's office.

The judge granted the motion to dismiss the case on the grounds that Saavedra acted in self defense according to Florida's "Stand your ground" statute.

“This court concludes that the defendant was in a place where he had a right to be and was not acting unlawfully. He Had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm,” the judge's ruling read. “Under current Florida law, the defendant had no duty to retreat... The defendant was under attack from the first punch to the back of his head until he stabbed Dylan Nuno.”



I really dunno what to think about this.

On the one hand, he defended himself from an unprovoked attack, and there may be mitigating factors we don't know about (such as bully being significantly bigger than him, etc), but by its self use of a knife against fists is not a proportional use of force.
On top of the fact that we're talking about a kid standing at a bus stop on his way to go to school and he had a knife on him...


Honestly, and maybe it's because I'm unmarried and have no kids, but to this day the most satisfying moment in my life is the day when I beat the piss out of a kid that bullied me regularly in 5th grade. Enough was enough one day, and I just lost it on him, and I remember that I was kicking and hitting him until he was just laying on the ground crying for me to stop.

It was more satisfying than the first time I had sex. It was more satisfying, as a single moment, than any single moment in the Marines (although much of it has been awesome, I now realize that my victory over a bully at 11 was more life-defining).

It was the last time I was bullied or picked on, and it was awesome.

It amazes me how many kids nowadays go through their entire childhood and into their adulthood without EVER having been in a fist fight. Untrained, unarmed human beings really aren't naturally able to do all that much damage to each other to be honest.
So, I don't see that change as a sign of civilization, I think it creates a distorted view of conflict and results in people just FLIPPING out for no reason and whipping out knives and gunning down their school and stuff.

That said, I don't know how I feel about this asshole getting stabbed to death. Jesus.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Melathys » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:55 am

proportional use of force doesn't exist in a fight for your life.

but, we don't know the specifics of this case. Apparently the judge felt that there was "danger of death or great bodily harm", so there's more to this story. Like in law enforcement, we don't do proportional use of force. a guy pulls a knife, we don't pull our baton and say this will be a fair fight, no, we pull our guns.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:19 am

Melathys wrote:proportional use of force doesn't exist in a fight for your life.

but, we don't know the specifics of this case. Apparently the judge felt that there was "danger of death or great bodily harm", so there's more to this story. Like in law enforcement, we don't do proportional use of force. a guy pulls a knife, we don't pull our baton and say this will be a fair fight, no, we pull our guns.


Well, pulling your gun if they pull a knife IS proportional use of force, because in the continuum of force you use one level of control higher than what the aggressor is using against you.
Drawing a knife is considered "Aggravated Active Aggression", as would coming after you with a baseball bat, or trying to run you over with a car. Drawing your sidearm is justified and an appropriate response in all those situations...FOR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

That's an important distinction to make though. A Law Enforcement Officer's job is to gain control of, and then de-escalate the situation. The "Plus One" higher level of control theory doesn't apply to two random civilians. And in this case, the jump was too far.
The kid went straight from punching to drawing a blade and stabbing the guy repeatedly in the chest and then watching him bleed out on the pavement. I have trouble intellectually viewing that as justified self-defense, unless there were SIGNIFICANT mitigating factors. For example, if he wasn't getting jumped by just one guy, but 12, and they were using metal pipes and bricks, THATS when you start stabbing people in the chest with your blade.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Astronomic » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:52 am

Don't think they teach kids the use of force model in schools. I didn't know about it till I was in the military.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:15 am

The concept of proportional use of force is totally irrelevant.

You can certainly be injured, maimed, and killed by fists, and are justified to believe your life is in danger. If someone is legitimately attempting to assault you, you should be able to do pretty much anything to them to stop it. The assaulter made the choice to break the law, to attempt to injure you, and to put you in a situation where you must defend yourself, they should have to live (or die) with the consequences.

Now I don't know the details of the altercation, but the judge seemed to believe that the kid had a good reason to fear for his life. There's probably some doubt about that, otherwise the DA wouldn't have been pressing charges in the first place. The details for this case might be fairly interesting.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:33 am

Fridmarr wrote:The concept of proportional use of force is totally irrelevant.

You can certainly be injured, maimed, and killed by fists, and are justified to believe your life is in danger. If someone is legitimately attempting to assault you, you should be able to do pretty much anything to them to stop it. The assaulter made the choice to break the law, to attempt to injure you, and to put you in a situation where you must defend yourself, they should have to live (or die) with the consequences.

This is what I agree with.

People's perception of danger varies from person to person, and often relies on your physical capabilities. Someone may only need their fists to fight back, while others may need an instrument to assist them. If someone has assaulted you, without physical provocation from yourself, and you can gain the upperhand easily with something you have on hand... why wouldn't you? You want to rely on "standing up to the bully" and making it a fair fight by using your fists as well? Forget it. For a weak(er) individual, you're not thinking about what will make this fight *fair*, you're thinking about making it out ALIVE.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Jeremoot » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:36 am

I think the controversial word here is "bully" which makes it sound like the kid was being pushed around on the playground. In reality, he was probably on the ground being whaled on by somebody much larger than him which is why the judge ruled self defense.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:10 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The concept of proportional use of force is totally irrelevant.

You can certainly be injured, maimed, and killed by fists, and are justified to believe your life is in danger. If someone is legitimately attempting to assault you, you should be able to do pretty much anything to them to stop it. The assaulter made the choice to break the law, to attempt to injure you, and to put you in a situation where you must defend yourself, they should have to live (or die) with the consequences.

This is what I agree with.

People's perception of danger varies from person to person, and often relies on your physical capabilities. Someone may only need their fists to fight back, while others may need an instrument to assist them. If someone has assaulted you, without physical provocation from yourself, and you can gain the upperhand easily with something you have on hand... why wouldn't you? You want to rely on "standing up to the bully" and making it a fair fight by using your fists as well? Forget it. For a weak(er) individual, you're not thinking about what will make this fight *fair*, you're thinking about making it out ALIVE.



See, that's the thing... merely DRAWING the knife and saying "BACK THE FLUFF OFF" would have accomplished that. Instead, he stabbed the dude repeatedly in the chest and then watched him bleed to death in front of him.

To me, the word "bully" sounds like extraneous emotional loaded baggage injected into the scenario to create sympathy for the killer. Implying that the other kid "had it coming" or "deserved it" or whatever.

Look at this from an outside perspective.

-Kid has a grudge against other kid
-Kid brings a deadly weapon with him TO SCHOOL
-Kid that he hated is now dead from that deadly weapon.

That sounds an awful lot like premeditated first degree murder to me, not self defense. In what universe do you bring a knife with to school and that doesn't raise any questions?
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:17 am

Is there an original article about the incident somewhere? We're putting a lot of our own impressions on what actually happened. You only posted a judge's verdict with a few comments about the incident.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Amshel » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:24 am

Do we know how often he brought the knife with him to school? As often as kids are exposed to weapons now, there are amazing chances that just brandishing a weapon at someone won't instill enough fear in them to make them stop.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:27 am

I'd say it sounds more like premeditated self-defense. I consider it the same thing as if someone bought a gun and obtained a concealed-carry permit: It's there if you need it.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby bldavis » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:29 am

Nikachelle wrote:Is there an original article about the incident somewhere? We're putting a lot of our own impressions on what actually happened. You only posted a judge's verdict with a few comments about the incident.

i agree completely, which is why i am withholding my judgement until i get more info
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:31 am

It wasn't even on school grounds. It was at a bus stop.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:31 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan ... efense-ca/

A few thoughts:
-The "bully" wasn't really bigger than the other kid in any meaningful way that would have made him especially threatening. He was a couple years older is all, but not physically bigger.
-Supposedly the two kids challenged each other to a fight while on the bus, but Saavedra got off on an earlier stop and tried to run away. The other kid chased him, caught up, and the had a scuffle, at which point Saavedra drew his knife and stabbed the other kid 12 times in the chest and heart.
-The two kids had had previous altercations before
-The prosecution claimed that the dead kid wasn't a bully, and had actually transferred schools to escape from bullying at his previous school.
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Re: Florida: Bullying Victim Allowed to Kill

Postby Brekkie » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:32 am

Nikachelle wrote:It wasn't even on school grounds. It was at a bus stop.


While this is a true statement, it was on the bus stop after getting dropped off FROM school. He had the knife with him in his possession while at school, unless he somehow managed to acquire it on the bus.
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