World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Sala » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:36 pm

Bit offtopic (move it if needed)
I've been slaughtered lately on the two "generals" HC

Im running in a 10man guild, where I and a fellow officer (druid) have been tanking this entire expansion. sharing the tanking duties equally.

Last few weeks ive been passing spots because i had a'lot of work, or playing Ret(I have the best gear for offspec) while we were progressing Yor'sahj & Zon'ozz. this leading to our druid tank tanking all kills on those two. today we wanted to switch so i got to tanking but it wasn't pretty. healers complained that i was taking insane amount of damage compared to the druid. unhealable if i had a "bad streak"

also i do not have the 4set tanking bonus(which was another complain). would it be a benefit for the Raid if i switched Head/shoulder to 384 Raid finder even though its 410/391.

(tl;dr what am i doing wrong)

Worldoflogs:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vqpo4vnuvx6qppj6/

Armory
ME (pala):http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/auchindoun/Saladur/simple
Druid tank:http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/auchindoun/Ringstrom/simple
-Sala-
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:17 pm

Eating a small non-optimum situation is always doable, by definition. Further by definition, it is non-optimum, so why use that strategy when you don't need to? World first or not doesn't matter.

You're example proves my point. Why did you bother with the DoT player to begin with? You aren't in a world first guild, you have more gear, so those things don't matter at all, right? You can't say those things don't matter and then try to take advantage of them at the same time, you just contradict yourself.

You ultimately chose the player with the better output and I would too. That doesn't mean you ignore mechanics that favor certain classes, because you aren't competing for a world first kill. Again, I'd argue the tank and raid taking less damage helps raids at any level, probably mid level raids even more than the elite


Your lack of familiarity with the Alysrazor encounter has lead you to miscontrue what I was saying. In that encounter, whomever 'flies' after her gains stacks of a haste buff even beyond being 'haste capped'. However, DoTs continue to take advantage of the ahste, thus DoT classes are heavily preffered so as to maximize use of this buff to down the boss faster. As our DoT class player (who is a NORMAL part of our raid, which has been static people-wise for a year) was not comfortable with this mechanic we went with a melee player who was more comfortable, eventhough it was a non-optimal solution we felt getting some dps by having a non-optimal flyer was better than not having a flyer. Again, the DoT class would ahve had the superior output in that situation, we went with someone mroe comfortable with the mechanic over the optimal class, because that worked for us. As a guild that is not world first, we are more willing to make those tradeoffs.

As a smaller raid we do not always have access to players/classes to be optimum in every spot. We also do not sub people out to gain specific bonuses, but usually only if someone can't make a raid.

I agree that tanks/raid taking less damage is always beneficial, I am jsut arguing that in most cases the benefit of a certain class or the non-optimal portion of another class tends to be small, and that these small benefits are most noticeable for world first guilds where the margin is much lower. Other guilds doing content with higher gear, still face a situation such that class/spec imballances are more likely to be masked by player skill/comfort with mechanic/connection latency and thus later guilds can be tolerant of these situations. Again, as a non-world first guild we routinely sent melee up for Alysrazor where they would be quickly haste-capped while a DoT class dps would continue to get benefit from haste through doTs ticking faster. We ate a non-optimal situation because with higher gear level than a world first guild we were able to do so and still succeed. Yes it was non-optimal but the amount of non-optimalness is a shrinking fraction of total raid capability, and thus more tolerable as time goes on and gear improves.

0.01% better chance to down a boss is a big deal for the world first, it is not a factor in world 10,000
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:25 pm

Sala wrote:
(tl;dr what am i doing wrong)


Nothing. Your gear is fine for those fights and you shouldn't be taking anything even approaching "unhealable" damage. We take more damage in certain situations but it's nothing that good healers can't overcome. Check your cooldown usage, maybe see if you can optimise it a bit but other than that I got nothing.

The set bonus is nice but not compulsory.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:23 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:
Eating a small non-optimum situation is always doable, by definition. Further by definition, it is non-optimum, so why use that strategy when you don't need to? World first or not doesn't matter.

You're example proves my point. Why did you bother with the DoT player to begin with? You aren't in a world first guild, you have more gear, so those things don't matter at all, right? You can't say those things don't matter and then try to take advantage of them at the same time, you just contradict yourself.

You ultimately chose the player with the better output and I would too. That doesn't mean you ignore mechanics that favor certain classes, because you aren't competing for a world first kill. Again, I'd argue the tank and raid taking less damage helps raids at any level, probably mid level raids even more than the elite


Your lack of familiarity with the Alysrazor encounter has lead you to miscontrue what I was saying. In that encounter, whomever 'flies' after her gains stacks of a haste buff even beyond being 'haste capped'. However, DoTs continue to take advantage of the ahste, thus DoT classes are heavily preffered so as to maximize use of this buff to down the boss faster. As our DoT class player (who is a NORMAL part of our raid, which has been static people-wise for a year) was not comfortable with this mechanic we went with a melee player who was more comfortable, eventhough it was a non-optimal solution we felt getting some dps by having a non-optimal flyer was better than not having a flyer. Again, the DoT class would ahve had the superior output in that situation, we went with someone mroe comfortable with the mechanic over the optimal class, because that worked for us. As a guild that is not world first, we are more willing to make those tradeoffs.

As a smaller raid we do not always have access to players/classes to be optimum in every spot. We also do not sub people out to gain specific bonuses, but usually only if someone can't make a raid.

I agree that tanks/raid taking less damage is always beneficial, I am jsut arguing that in most cases the benefit of a certain class or the non-optimal portion of another class tends to be small, and that these small benefits are most noticeable for world first guilds where the margin is much lower. Other guilds doing content with higher gear, still face a situation such that class/spec imballances are more likely to be masked by player skill/comfort with mechanic/connection latency and thus later guilds can be tolerant of these situations. Again, as a non-world first guild we routinely sent melee up for Alysrazor where they would be quickly haste-capped while a DoT class dps would continue to get benefit from haste through doTs ticking faster. We ate a non-optimal situation because with higher gear level than a world first guild we were able to do so and still succeed. Yes it was non-optimal but the amount of non-optimalness is a shrinking fraction of total raid capability, and thus more tolerable as time goes on and gear improves.

0.01% better chance to down a boss is a big deal for the world first, it is not a factor in world 10,000

Nothing you describe in the mechanic changes anything at all (the logical assumption was that DoTs allowed for better DPS), it only confirms my comment. You tried using a player whose class is better able to produce DPS in that situation, he couldn't or didn't want to do that, so you swapped. You ate a non optimal situation because that was your next best option, but it sure as hell made sense for you to try a DoT class first, just like it makes sense for others to try a tank whose mechanics better fit the encounter.

A world first guild could eat the non optimal situation (and in fact they sometimes do because not every strategy is fleshed out when they get their kills) too, but they prioritize the advantage. With these sorts of advantages, it likely very rarely matters even for them too. I mean even you are saying it's only a .01% increase in success rate. That doesn't equate to faster kills very often. They don't operate on a lower margin, otherwise that implies that guilds getting kills later have an easier time with the encounter than world first guilds do. They certainly have less of their output coming from gear, but that is made for by having more output from skill, so the margin is close to the same.

A .01% increase is a .01% increase, it doesn't matter any more for world firsts than it does for world 10,000.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Forgrim » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:22 am

Lieris wrote:
Sala wrote:
(tl;dr what am i doing wrong)


Nothing. Your gear is fine for those fights and you shouldn't be taking anything even approaching "unhealable" damage. We take more damage in certain situations but it's nothing that good healers can't overcome. Check your cooldown usage, maybe see if you can optimise it a bit but other than that I got nothing.

The set bonus is nice but not compulsory.


I used to MT for our guild when it got noticeable that our DK OT, and feral druid, when tanking the bosses, were much more stable hp wise, so I've been relegated to OT/retspec dps status. Which I actually happen to agree on since we're clearly not up to snuff for the DS heroic fights compared to the tools DK's and feral druids bring to the table (in raid cd's, etc.)

I think paladins are amazing OT's tho, since you can sac the MT, and your DG affects them to give them another mitigation during massive aoe + tank damage (ex. warlord zonozz ball bounce #9). My experience is only 5/8 heroic on DS bosses, but every single boss (besides morchok) is sub optimal to bring a pally tank if you have other options. If they had given us a better 4p t13 set bonus, i don't think we'd be as bad. the t13 bonus should also add in cooldownless WoG again so we're back to t11 status (i'm kidding. kind of)
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:13 am

Shouldn't ultraxion be much better for block tanks? Considering shield block/holy shield has 100% uptime. And glyphed DP on every twilight hour makes that a joke too.

I really can't imagine dk's and druids being more stable in hp then warriors or paladins. They have more tools, but they still get more spikes that will require those tools. My healers say it's easier to heal me then the warrior or druid, but maybe that's just coz they are used to my tanking. We haven't had a dk tank anything since FL and they where horrible back then but I think we can all agree.

I am gearing a bit different then most paladins though. I generally have a bit more EH, but less avoidance.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Winkle » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:00 am

Forgrim wrote:
Lieris wrote:
Sala wrote:
(tl;dr what am i doing wrong)

I used to MT for our guild when it got noticeable that our DK OT, and feral druid, when tanking the bosses, were much more stable hp wise, so I've been relegated to OT/retspec dps status. Which I actually happen to agree on since we're clearly not up to snuff for the DS heroic fights compared to the tools DK's and feral druids bring to the table (in raid cd's, etc.)

I think paladins are amazing OT's tho, since you can sac the MT, and your DG affects them to give them another mitigation during massive aoe + tank damage (ex. warlord zonozz ball bounce #9). My experience is only 5/8 heroic on DS bosses, but every single boss (besides morchok) is sub optimal to bring a pally tank if you have other options. If they had given us a better 4p t13 set bonus, i don't think we'd be as bad. the t13 bonus should also add in cooldownless WoG again so we're back to t11 status (i'm kidding. kind of)


Haven't you got it all backwards? How are Pala's strong on Morchok. Outside stomp his damage is trivial yet we can't block stomp.

Zonozz hits harder/faster as he stacks his buff so a block tank works nicely here. And i question why'd you'd even use a 2nd tank.

I don't see how we're suboptimal on the other bosses either except of course Yor'sahj. The difference between me and an alt DK tanking hc yor'sahj was in the order of 10k DPS (reccieved) at peak damage times. The ability to stack an absorb and pool runes is a lot more desirable than my crappy block.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Forgrim » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:10 pm

Sorry, I could have explained better.

I never said we were great for Morchok, I just said we're sub optimal for other bosses, and I just disregarded Morchok cuz its Morchok. For Zonozz, we used to run me (prot pal) as the MT with the OT being a feral druid, and it was dangerous around 10 bounces for me as a tank when Zonozz started to hit like a monster. As the OT, I could sac the MT while running Goak and getting in position for the tentacle spawn and we never had a MT death after that. Theoretically, I could have tanked the claw tentacle as ret, but since we don't kill it, I stay as tank. Also, we don't have any problem killing Zonozz before enrage so its perfectly ok with me in a tank spec.

I'm in a 25 man guild so tank dps alleviates the dps on H Ultraxion. And average, paladin does the worst dps out out of all the tank specs (looking at state of dps charts median), whereas blood dk's and feral druids avg. higher. Survivability of the tank seems to matter less on this fight since its a tank swap mechanism and there's no real gib chance.

Antimagic shell apparently works on relentless assault from H Hagara. I couldn't for the life of me figure the logic behind that one out.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:55 pm

Winkle wrote:Haven't you got it all backwards? How are Pala's strong on Morchok. Outside stomp his damage is trivial yet we can't block stomp.


Stomp itself isn't what kills, the blockable melee swings immediately afterwards are the ones that get you.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:41 am

Stomp is very predictable and reliable damageincome, no class is particulary weak/strong against that, like Psiven said, its the damage afterwards that usually kills you that you cannot prepare for as much.
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