Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Mannstein » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:22 am

warden wrote:
While those of us pushing right into heroic gear see a clear path here, not everyone is doing that.

The shoulders are a about a 40 str winner, with a tad less mastery/hit and trading haste for crit, while the gloves are a 240 mastery gain in exchange for about the same in haste and a bit of crit.

You are right, i went into HM, and the OP was speaking in normal.
If you (will) have access to HM, the shoulder>hands, but in normal mode i think the gloves are better bet.

If we are speaking only in ret-offspec/leftovers, ANYTHING that gives you 2pieces T13, it's a HUGE improvement, never mind if it's the shoulders head or whatever.

Kelaan wrote:My minor frustration is that I raid little enough that LFR is my sole source of loot, and my ret set is not good enough (or existent) that I feel confident queueing as DPS rather than a tank. To top it off, I feel like I need to (?) spend my VP/JP on tanking gear rather than ret gear to stay viable.... otoh, we don't do hard modes, so maybe it's moot.

Kellan,
Can you:
A) Press a button every 1,5seconds
B) Do not go AFK during 2-5minutes
C) Get of the "death stuff on the floor" or do not stay there too much time
D) Stay alive during at least 50-60% of the fight

IF you can make at least 1 of the 4above, i think you can make it top 5dps... :P
To be honest i don't agree with the "if i can queue i can go" mentality, (i.e. DPS with full tank gear\purplez ilvl in the bag), but if you can do the dps\performance expected, there is no reason not to go, i.e. because you don't have a epic trinket or whatever.
Myself i went Disc Smite spec using the Archangel to AoE heal and reached 10th on the damage done and 2nd on the healing...
So will queue as healer in disc/smite, but will not go shadow because despite having the gear i don't know what i'm doing.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Pliers » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:06 am

You'll also be waiting a much longer time to get H. Spine shoulders than you will for H. T13 shoulders.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:34 am

Mannstein wrote:Can you:
B) Do not go AFK during 2-5minutes
C) Get of the "death stuff on the floor" or do not stay there too much time
D) Stay alive during at least 50-60% of the fight

IF you can make at least 1 of the 4above, i think you can make it top 5dps... :P

LOL. :D It's so true. Top ten, at least -- hell my tank is like top 12 dps or something half the time. Thanks for the reassurance. Right now my gear is pretty much S10/S11 pvp gear gemmed for str and reforged for hit/exp/crit. I'll have to change from pvp-prot to ret, I guess, and give it a whirl.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Grimlyn » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:54 pm

Hmmm..im sketchy about this 2 piece T 13. Last night I was having fun running 25 man ICC for transmog gear. There was another ret paladin in the raid. Consistently he out DPSed me by about 2-3k. I could pull 35k and hed pull 38. i was like that the whole time. I checked his gear and he was still running off the 4 piece t12 with t13 gloves. his trinkets were the Reg vessel and a regular AoK. I need to test this for a while.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Mannstein » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:49 am

Grimlyn wrote:Hmmm..im sketchy about this 2 piece T 13. Last night I was having fun running 25 man ICC for transmog gear. There was another ret paladin in the raid. Consistently he out DPSed me by about 2-3k. I could pull 35k and hed pull 38. i was like that the whole time. I checked his gear and he was still running off the 4 piece t12 with t13 gloves. his trinkets were the Reg vessel and a regular AoK. I need to test this for a while.


Grimlyn,
The 2pieces is huge, really huge, especialy since you get used to the "delay" on the HP gain from judgment.
About him doing more dps than you it's hard to figure on that feedback... what is your weapon? What is his weapon? etc...

There are some changes with the 2pieces that take a while to manage...
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:30 am

Grim-
The 4pcT12 is a great set bonus, it just doesn't work out for many fights in Dragon Soul. The core problem is that the 4T12 essentially locks you into a fixed 35 second burn with a 9 second lead-in... That's 44 seconds you're locked to the boss. Many bosses in Dragon Soul have mechanics that simply don't let you do this.

The 2pT13 (and later, 4pT13) cuts this down it two ways. First, your ramp up is seriously reduced because of the extra HP gain. Second, your "burn" phase is cut from 35 seconds to 20 and you have a bit more freedom timing your burn with Inquisition uptime (with the 4pT12 you have to start it on a fresh refresh). This means, if you're willing to sacrifice a teensy bit of GanK uptime (~4 seconds), you can start your burn at the 6 second mark into a fight (critical on fights that burn hero near the pull), which can often net you a whole extra cooldown rotation in the fight.

Examples:
Hagara is up for ~25 seconds before her first p2. With 2pT13, you can burn GanK on the pull, do your first burn on your first set of HP at the ~6 second mark, and finish your burn just as she transitions. With the 4pT12 you either waste ~19 seconds of your burn or have to push back til after the first transition.

Yor'sahj's first ooze comes out ~20 seconds into the fight. Unless you're allowed to sit on the boss, same situation as above (my RL lets me finish my burn, which means sitting on the boss for about 4 seconds after the ooze comes out, then rocket booting to the ooze, but that's us. I wouldn't be able to sit on the boss for the whole first ooze if I had 4pT12).

On Heroic, Zon'ozz's 2nd and 3rd collapse phases, depending on your tentacle strat, can be very hard to set up a burn during, as with his tight enrage you really don't want to sit on holy power or refresh Inq early to set up a burn. 2pT13 lets you have plenty of breathing room to get a full burn in during the collapse and get back out to start killing tentacles during the black phase.

On spine, tendons are up for 23 seconds. Assuming you're saving 3hp for the start of the tendons to pop Zealotry, a 20 second complete burn is FAR more dps on the tendon than 23 seconds of a 35 second burn.

Don't stress about what you saw in ICC. Check your parses on relevent fights (even using LFR if needed) and against the ~80% or 90% curve on WoL ranking if you're worried about how you're doing comparatively.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:43 am

What's your opener look like Warden? I only picked ret back up recently, got 2pt13 but using the mastery proc trinket from one of the new 5 mans. I'm generally doing a 2 hp inq before getting my 3hp for zealotry, not sure if I should go for a 3hp inq instead (meaning I don't need to refresh it during burn) or just pop zealotry after my initial 3 hp to maximise overlap of burn and trinket proc/pre-pot (a lot of which is getting wasted at the moment) but again having to put up inq during burn.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:05 am

Given enough time (ie, not one of the situations with a strict time requirement above, I do the following:

Pre-pot
@3HP, full 36 sec Inq, pop GanK
@ next 3HP (or DP Proc) Zealotry/AW

Normally I wouldn't go on DP proc, I'd let GanK stacks build until 3HP, but in this case maximizing pre-pot time is more important. I also usually judge running in unless I can start right up on the boss (Ultraxion, first pull of Hagara). You should have about 26-28 sec of Inq when you start your burn.

Remember that popping Inq at 2Hp only gives you Inq uptime for one filler (which is holy wrath unless you get an AoW proc on the first CS or J) and one CS past just waiting for 3HP--usually not worth 25%+ of your pre-pot time and most of your trinket proc.

On situations where I'm pressed for time, I modify a bit:

Pre-pot
GanK
@3HP, Zeal, Inq, AW--note, it is very important to use Zeal first.

This sometimes costs me one TV at the end of the burn, depending on how the timing works out, but is worth it in situations where doing the full opener would leave me chilling out with 3-4 seconds of cooldowns up and nothing to attack. I'm also using two trinkets that build stacks, so I don't really factor trinket proc into the calc, and I can burn my Eng gloves with the burn.

Hope that helps?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Thanks, definitely given me some ideas.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:59 am

So what are poeple's thoughts on the nerf to Tentalces? I'm yet to get one as weapons for my ret spec are the bane of existence, but it'd be nice to hear what other people think / are experiencing.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Qeeze » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:00 am

Fenrìr wrote:So what are people's thoughts on the nerf to Tentacles? I'm yet to get one as weapons for my ret spec are the bane of existence, but it'd be nice to hear what other people think / are experiencing.


I was pleased to see Blizzard say the sword is doing what they wanted it to do. Naturally some pvp'ers bitched about the proc, but hey, they bitch about everything. The Blue post told them to deal with it, and another recent blue post pretty much told everyone who posts on the forums to fuck off. They know what every class is doing and they buff or nurf accordingly. While some may not like that fact, it's how things should be. As usual a well played Ret Paladin does competitive DPS.

Sure at times you do get lucky and have a small army of tentacles up. The change to it procing off censure was justified and is live now.

Currently I'm running 4pc T13 (only one of which is a 397 itl), & I have the 403 sword.

Last night, our 25 man Alizabal kill took us 2:19.

Over all I did a total of 4,650,635 damage and my "Pet" accounted for 296,136 of that total damage.

My Pet's Mind Flay did a total of 296,136 damage with 18 total ticks.
12 average ticks @ 13,922.6 for a total of 167,071 damage.
6 crit ticks @ 21,510.8 for a total of 129,065 damage.
Total uptime was 00:18 (12.8 %)

Now assuming the 12 second duration stays in once 4.3.2 goes live, and I get 2 more seconds of the proc, how many more ticks am I going to see on a fight like this?

In any case, the normal and heroic versions of this sword will still be a Ret Paladin's BIS weapons for the rest of this expansion.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:38 am

Ana and I did some pretty extensive testing on this last night both in and out of raid.

- Proc rate was almost halved. Their contribution to my damage on Ultraxion dropped from 13.9% to 6.1%. Similar results from logs on Morchok and Yor'sahj.

- Training dummy tests confirm the proc rate is down to about 2%, as Exemplar from EJ theorized. I managed a 1.86% proc rate across about 500 tests, while Parabald posted that he was seeing about 2.1% across about 1k.

- Looking at some fury logs for Ultraxion, they're averaging 12-13%, about same as pre-nerf ret. Pre-nerf ret's numbers in PPM were a bit higher than Unholy DKs, but lower than Arms or Fury.

- The biggest PvP problem is probably the slow. There is no PvE purpose for this and it should be removed.

- It is not Ret's fault that Fury is a broken spec. The sword is the problem. Fix the sword, and the GO FUCKING FIX FURY if its numbers are still too low, don't beat us up.

- SoT being a melee attack isn't a bug--half of our attacks are spells. This mechanic is essential to us being a viable melee class. The other alternative is to make AoW Exo, Holy Wrath, and HoW (not sure about this one) count as a melee attack for ret like Judgement does.

- The community moderators don't all understand the difference between Seal of Truth and Censure.

- And finally, I am embarassed, ashamed, and mortified that one of my own guild members, and a community MvP at that, is a major contributor to this misinformation-spreading, fearmongering, ret-hating witch hunt. It is truly and utterally a disgrace that he's allowed his paladin-inferiority-complex to leak into this and I can't even describe my level of embarassment at having to appologize for him in this forum. I'm sorry.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:59 am

Yea, I just got caught up on the paladin stuff over at EJ. It is a bit sickening at how much it was nerfed. Hopefully I get the axe from Yor'sahj this week over the trials (yea right...I'm a tank, luls).
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:14 am

Could be worse, you could be a tank in LFR, where every week a new person needs your Souldrinkers, and you don't get to roll on Ret weapons. ;) (/whinge) It was interesting, though, that that sword is so well regarded that all of the PvP-ers I've read say things like "Go get that sword". :-( Time to make a DPS spec, I guess!
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Qeeze » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:21 am

Fenrìr wrote:Yea, I just got caught up on the paladin stuff over at EJ. It is a bit sickening at how much it was nerfed. Hopefully I get the axe from Yor'sahj this week over the trials (yea right...I'm a tank, luls).


Exemplar posing on the EJ forums wrote: Gur'thalak is not dead. Sky is not falling. Mars does not need women. Please return to your normally scheduled programs.

At an average 8.5 ticks per proc the rankings go (back to):
Normal DS Weapons < LFR Gur < Heroic Sulfuras < Heroic DS Weapons < Normal Gur < Heroic Gur.

Normal is still better than (H) DS weapons
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