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World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:27 pm

Worldie wrote:Smartness can't stop prejudice.

Remember when that paladin from Nihilum said Paladin tanks were a joke? It didn't matter that many of us had already demostrated that paladins were a viable choice, everyone was believing him and penalizing many paladins because "the big guy from the big guild said so".

Personally, I am being benched in favour of a feral druid alt so not liking much the situation, but I have lost the will of fighting for my spot, just playing a different char until DS hc is cleared and in farm status.


I remember that. There were a lot of guilds who suddenly thought they were Nihilum when they hadn't even killed Gruul. Dumb people fail to understand that they aren't even playing the same game as these world first chasers. My guild is world 29 and even at that level there is a world of difference between them and the top 10.

I liked how Kungen posted on his guild forums around that time asking how to find out if he was uncrushable too! :lol:
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:38 pm

Lieris wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.


You have barely any gear in the first week so you need to optimise your raid setup (with the huge pool of players and alts these guilds have available it makes sense) and because if you're not doing that sort of progression you are not in the sort of raid group that would replace you just for being a paladin tank. On a personal level paladins being weaker hasn't effected me at all as I am the main tank regardless and we're chugging along nicely. Having a paladin tank will not hamper progression in any significant way for 99% of guilds, the extra damage we take on abilities XYZ can be overcome with skilled healers and smart cooldown usage.

That still doesn't jive. Gear, skill, execution etc all add up to some level of output. Once you reach the boss, your output is roughly equal (or slightly less since early guilds likely overshot what was needed) albeit aided by additional gear. So, unless the abilities that cause you to use a specific tank are heavily affected by gear scaling, these guilds would have more of a reason to make the switch than top guilds who are able to operate within much tighter margins.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:41 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.


I'd actually disagree. Class balance really only matters in the top 1-2% of progression guilds. Even at the level I play at, player skill makes far more difference than class balance. For guilds in normal modes, class balance is almost irrelevant; your DPS output is generally far more severely limited by your own ability than by your class's design.

Where it really matters is the bleeding edge - where you can assume that you have any of the classes played at the very highest skill level, and you don't have the luxury of waiting a week or two to bolster any class imbalance with gear.

Basically, what Lieris said.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:That still doesn't jive. Gear, skill, execution etc all add up to some level of output. Once you reach the boss, your output is roughly equal (or slightly less since early guilds likely overshot what was needed) albeit aided by additional gear. So, unless the abilities that cause you to use a specific tank are heavily affected by gear scaling, these guilds would have more of a reason to make the switch than top guilds who are able to operate within much tighter margins.

You're assuming guilds have access to equally skilled players of any class. That's generally not the case unless you're at the bleeding edge (say, top 50 world?).

So for example, if a warrior makes fight X easier, you don't just up and recruit a warrior for it. Chances are that new player isn't exactly as skilled as the tanks you have. They're either stronger, in which case that player would have been a better choice regardless of class, or they're weaker, in which case you're better off sticking with the stronger player that you had to begin with despite the fact that their class might not be optimal.

We run 2 paladin tanks, and I can almost guarantee that we're not going to have someone play an off-spec to tank any of the heroic modes in DS. For one thing, we're just not that type of guild, and for another, our two tanks are pretty damn good already (though, I may be biased :P).
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:09 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.


I'd actually disagree. Class balance really only matters in the top 1-2% of progression guilds. Even at the level I play at, player skill makes far more difference than class balance. For guilds in normal modes, class balance is almost irrelevant; your DPS output is generally far more severely limited by your own ability than by your class's design.

Where it really matters is the bleeding edge - where you can assume that you have any of the classes played at the very highest skill level, and you don't have the luxury of waiting a week or two to bolster any class imbalance with gear.

Basically, what Lieris said.

But you aren't changing your skill level, it's basically static at this point, it is what it is. Sure, there's more hay to be made by playing better, but that's just not going happen, so if anything, class balance matters more because the skill level is less efficient other factors are magnified.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:14 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That still doesn't jive. Gear, skill, execution etc all add up to some level of output. Once you reach the boss, your output is roughly equal (or slightly less since early guilds likely overshot what was needed) albeit aided by additional gear. So, unless the abilities that cause you to use a specific tank are heavily affected by gear scaling, these guilds would have more of a reason to make the switch than top guilds who are able to operate within much tighter margins.

You're assuming guilds have access to equally skilled players of any class. That's generally not the case unless you're at the bleeding edge (say, top 50 world?).

So for example, if a warrior makes fight X easier, you don't just up and recruit a warrior for it. Chances are that new player isn't exactly as skilled as the tanks you have. They're either stronger, in which case that player would have been a better choice regardless of class, or they're weaker, in which case you're better off sticking with the stronger player that you had to begin with despite the fact that their class might not be optimal.

We run 2 paladin tanks, and I can almost guarantee that we're not going to have someone play an off-spec to tank any of the heroic modes in DS. For one thing, we're just not that type of guild, and for another, our two tanks are pretty damn good already (though, I may be biased :P).

No I'm not, that's silly. I'm not telling anyone to swap tanks, especially to a worse player. I would assume that lots of guilds, especially below the top tier of guilds, carry several tanks of varying classes anyhow, but that is completely off topic to any point I'm attempting to make.

All I'm saying is that if there is an advantage to using a certain class of tank, it is very unlikely that that advantage disappears at skill levels slightly below the elite. I think it's more likely to be the opposite really.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:But you aren't changing your skill level, it's basically static at this point, it is what it is. Sure, there's more hay to be made by playing better, but that's just not going happen, so if anything, class balance matters more because the skill level is less efficient other factors are magnified.

My skill level with a paladin is X. My skill level with a DK is X-1. Which is better to take?
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Absalom » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:56 pm

Treckie wrote:Also, they didnt bench the paladin cuz the warrior was taking less damage, or doing to little damage, but rather cuz of warriors insane mobility and their unlimited taunts.
Even those who use a paladin tank, is prolly using a warrior tank to kite the bloods tbh.


Just wanted to chime in here and say that undeniably warriors can kite better, but it's not that bad for paladins to kite on Heroic Spine as well. We have enough ranged threat and taunt abilities to pick up bloods fairly well while kiting.

Our Heroic Spine 25M Kill - http://youtu.be/Paz59lpg9Vg

It's not impossible, just takes a bit of practice. :)
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:58 pm

I have to agree with Theck, main reason beeing that when your doing the fights so early, gear is a big issue.
Once you have pretty much everyone in bis gear they can gather before the "hard" boss, player skill is what make the boss hard at that point, not the actual classses involved.
Say rogues are best for, whatever reason, for a top guild, you could realistically maybe have 9 rogues in the raid, and maybe do the fight, but if you wiat a few weeks even months for everyone to have the right gear, any class would be able to do the same as that rogue did undergeared.
Yes, an overgeared rogue could do even more, but the choice might be between choosing a bad rogue with good gear, or a good warrior with good gear.
The rogue "should" perform better as they did so in a top guild, but that might not be the same for you.
If you are going to say one class is stronger than another, you need to take into account that you have equally skilled players playing both chars, otherwise it all falls apart.
The class advantage doesnt disappear at a lower skill level, but it does become less important as theres a lot other factors that contribute to your "non success".
Problem is that in lower skill levels, the kiting might not be that great, usually what seperates players is not their ability to react, its their ability to know what to do AND use their whole character, every spell and ability included, a tank who doesnt think all his abilities matter might mean that he is simply less usefull than a "worse" tank with more skill.

The kiting isnt very hard either, paladins are very capable of doing the kiting aswell, but its "harder" and a warrior is more "fail safe" so to say, so if you can, you might want to use him instead.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:01 pm

Fridmarr wrote:No I'm not, that's silly. I'm not telling anyone to swap tanks, especially to a worse player. I would assume that lots of guilds, especially below the top tier of guilds, carry several tanks of varying classes anyhow, but that is completely off topic to any point I'm attempting to make.

All I'm saying is that if there is an advantage to using a certain class of tank, it is very unlikely that that advantage disappears at skill levels slightly below the elite. I think it's more likely to be the opposite really.


We don't carry multiple tanks, we just have me as main tank and a warrior co-tank with good DPS gear (I don't get given any DPS gear because I am always expected to tank). Our hardcore group only have two tanks also. For what it's worth we had an off-spec paladin tank Ultraxion with me for our first kill (my co-tank was away) with bits of Firelands and BOE gear.

And again the disadvantage isn't enough to hamper progression. Having DPS in the 90~ percentile and 2-3 amazing healers on 10 man and having nobody die matters far more than the tank you choose. We are actually the least important piece of the puzzle.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:03 pm

Absalom wrote:Just wanted to chime in here and say that undeniably warriors can kite better, but it's not that bad for paladins to kite on Heroic Spine as well. We have enough ranged threat and taunt abilities to pick up bloods fairly well while kiting.

Our Heroic Spine 25M Kill - http://youtu.be/Paz59lpg9Vg

It's not impossible, just takes a bit of practice. :)

I dont know your situation, but im guessing you dont really have a warrior who is mainspecc tank?
I actually did do the kiting the first few times, way way before the kill, and suggested it as a valid tactic, altho we changed around later on.
Actually suggested a frost DK with tank gear on first, as you dont really have to "tank" that much, just kiting around, but they lack a stun, making it even worse for them.
Im just trying to explain why we (and KIN) benched the paladin tank, we simply did have the option of taking in a warrior instead.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:08 pm

Absalom wrote:
Treckie wrote:Also, they didnt bench the paladin cuz the warrior was taking less damage, or doing to little damage, but rather cuz of warriors insane mobility and their unlimited taunts.
Even those who use a paladin tank, is prolly using a warrior tank to kite the bloods tbh.


Just wanted to chime in here and say that undeniably warriors can kite better, but it's not that bad for paladins to kite on Heroic Spine as well. We have enough ranged threat and taunt abilities to pick up bloods fairly well while kiting.

Our Heroic Spine 25M Kill - http://youtu.be/Paz59lpg9Vg

It's not impossible, just takes a bit of practice. :)


Good job Abs, it's nice to see a paladin representing in that role.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Absalom » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:13 pm

Treck wrote:I dont know your situation, but im guessing you dont really have a warrior who is mainspecc tank?


We do. Our blood DK has a relatively well-geared tank of each class.

Riggimon is his warrior - http://www.wowprogress.com/character/us/illidan/Riggimon (linking wowprogress since the armory is down right now).

We simply preferred to raid on our mains, as we are for Madness.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:15 pm

Fridmarr wrote:But you aren't changing your skill level, it's basically static at this point, it is what it is. Sure, there's more hay to be made by playing better, but that's just not going happen, so if anything, class balance matters more because the skill level is less efficient other factors are magnified.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting that a player stagnates in skill level? Because I'd disagree with that; I still think I'm getting better at this game over time. Both in terms of individual encounters, and overall game play.

I still disagree with the idea that when skill level varies more greatly, class imbalance gets magnified. As an example, if enhancement shamans are 10% behind ret paladins in simulations, do you automatically bench your enhancement shaman for another ret? Maybe in a top guild, where that 10% edge can be expected to manifest itself because the players are all playing to near perfection. But not in an average guild, where you can't necessarily expect that result. We have an excellent enhancement shaman who outperforms lots of other classes that he shouldn't be on paper, because he's an excellent player. Hence, in that case player skill more than makes up for class imbalance.

Another way to think of it is as an experimental error or variation. If you throw 25 meter sticks through a wood chipper, you don't expect the minor length errors inherent in producing meter sticks to be the biggest variation in length. It'll be the giant fluctuations caused by the fact that they just got chopped off to near-arbitrary lengths by a wood chipper!

In other words, it's a difference between perceived gain and practical, empirical gains. If the class imbalance is small, as it seems to be on spine, then it's of almost no use for most guilds to start class stacking. It's only at the very top where it makes sense. If the class imbalance becomes very large (ex: tanking Illidan pre-3.0, where you basically needed Shield Block), then that sort of thing will turn into a practical gain, and the average guild will start pursuing that advantage.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fetzie » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:47 pm

[quote=Treck]Actually suggested a frost DK with tank gear on first, as you dont really have to "tank" that much, just kiting around, but they lack a stun, making it even worse for them.
Im just trying to explain why we (and KIN) benched the paladin tank, we simply did have the option of taking in a warrior instead.[/quote]

On Normal mode, glyphed Holy Wrath stuns the bloods. Is this viable on heroic or would getting in range of them to do so mean dying to twenty melee swings?
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