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World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:44 pm

Warriors bring 2x raid CDs, paladins bring one.
Like i said in another post and what halabar quoted, warriors scale better, paladins simply stop scaling at one point, and we reached it ages ago.
Altho, If you are taking what a top guild said into account, dont forget all of it.
They mean that warriors are superior given same gear, its pretty much a given, but same gear, and current gear, means 4part t13.
Warriors actually gets a new ability, while ours are just back to pre nerf status.
They "should" have made ours either longer duration, or more powerfull.
Making it stronger might "seem" overpowered, but a 6sec duration is nothing, even if it would to be 50% dmg reduction.
Id gladly take two weaker CDs than one strong, but we dont even get to choose.
And yes, its true we can choose our CDs while warriors cant and have to use their CDs for the raid.
However thats a very small tradeoff, as you have multiple people in the raid with helpfull CDs anyway on single targets.
And this is really only gunship where i feel thats a plus, but even there 2x raid CDs are prolly better anyway xD

Also i said this very same thing less than a week ago, before the kill was done.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:09 pm

For what it's worth, that Warrior kiting on Bloods on their Spine kill was just epic. Put that in conjunction with Warriors not even being mentioned in that statement if you want a context of just how narrowly focused that question/answer was.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Shoju wrote:I wont comment on what class is best or worse right now, but if we are talking about unblockable killer damage, we are normally (and I say normally because there are cases it isn't) magic damage.


And if the 'unblockable killer damage' is magic, then warriors can reduce it by 20% by having shield block up at the right time, too. Obviously, I don't know the mechanics of the fight, so there may be multiple hits quick enough that you can't have shield block up for all of it, but, just pointing that particular thing out.

Also, at the world-first level, *somebody* is always going to be #4. In early Wrath, warriors were the worst tank. Other times, it's been bears, or DKs. Everyone else has had a turn at it. Now it's paladins. It's a tiny niche in the world of 'WoW tanking', and as I said, someone has to be last in that rarefied air. It'll change for next time, I imagine. Except next time, someone gets to be #5, with Brewmasters entering the mix. :D

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:40 pm

Yeh idd, nomatter how they do it, one class is always going to be the prefered choice.
If the differance is enough to matter tho, is another thing, and usually when you are pushing for world firsts, theres little room to improvise.
However, bring the player not the class is STILL very true, but if you can have a player at the same skill lvl with the "right" class, theres nothing to loose now is there?

Personally i dont mind, i get more time for work and Dota2 :P
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:45 pm

Treck wrote:Yeh idd, nomatter how they do it, one class is always going to be the prefered choice.
If the differance is enough to matter tho, is another thing, and usually when you are pushing for world firsts, theres little room to improvise.
However, bring the player not the class is STILL very true, but if you can have a player at the same skill lvl with the "right" class, theres nothing to loose now is there?

Personally i dont mind, i get more time for work and Dota2 :P


Treck, since you are on the bleeding edge, do you have any other classes that you raid with?

On a side note, Prot Pallys aren't the only ones loosing out. Pet classes are being benched due to mechanic problems with the Burning Tendons (it's even an issue in LFR, pets either don't attack or get one-shot).
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:54 pm

On a side note, Prot Pallys aren't the only ones loosing out. Pet classes are being benched due to mechanic problems with the Burning Tendons (it's even an issue in LFR, pets either don't attack or get one-shot).


That is painfull for my BM hunter (only do LFR). I send the pet in for the Tendon, notice that I still have no access to half my abilities (which requrie the pet to be engaging a target), and basically i'm screwed. My BM pet does like 40% of my total output, plus gives me access to buffs and other abilities I need, without it I probably lose like 60% of my output. Having a choice of either not dpsing the Tendon meaningfully or resing my pet after every Tendon is a pain.

So if I pull 24k total, its like 14k me, and 10k pet. if pet dies I prolly pull 10k or less until I can res it.

Every once in a while I have a pet fail for Madness too, but its mostly the ept getting lsot someplace, so a dismiss and resummon solves it quicker than a spine res.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:03 pm

Since I've not yet seen the fight, can ranged pets attack the tendons or no? I'm thinking something like a Wind Serpent/Imp.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:18 pm

halabar wrote:Treck, since you are on the bleeding edge, do you have any other classes that you raid with?

On a side note, Prot Pallys aren't the only ones loosing out. Pet classes are being benched due to mechanic problems with the Burning Tendons (it's even an issue in LFR, pets either don't attack or get one-shot).

I got a shaman that is BiS geared from firelands, enhancement.
And i got a mage that is pretty badly geared tho.
Thats all i got on my main server atleast.
My problem is that we said early in firelands progress that if we would ever go with only a single tank, it would always be me, so i didnt bother gearing my alts, or playing "usefull" alts (lets face it the chances an enha shaman will be the most prefered choice is very limited) i could have went more towards my mage, but didnt enjoy arcane, but would also have needed legendary to compete anyway.
Problem is that with warriors beeing better and more usefull, it completely screwed up with our original planning.
My ret gear is decent i guess tho.
We will see how we do it for next progress, most likely going to have more people using their offspeccs and focus better on people having the "right" alts instead of just having an alt, and gear it up.
Think im going to bring my druid dk and warrior over, so i can use all 3 and tank with whatever is the best for each progress, gonna have to level a monk aswell tho, meh.

And yes pet classes are pretty bad on spine, however sometimes it seems peoples pets die even if they dont send them in, and some cant even kill their pets even if they wanted to.
Maybe related to that the pets are standing where a plate "used" to be?
Even so, hunters arnt the best anyway, so even without the pet bug, hunters would likely not be used anyway, dont hear the locks complaining that much about it tho, or the DKs :P
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Shoju » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:32 pm

mavfin wrote:And if the 'unblockable killer damage' is magic, then warriors can reduce it by 20% by having shield block up at the right time, too. Obviously, I don't know the mechanics of the fight, so there may be multiple hits quick enough that you can't have shield block up for all of it, but, just pointing that particular thing out.

This (absorbs ~102k right now raid buffed)
is why (heals for ~50k right now raid buffed)
people say (reduces damage by ~42% raid buffed right now, for the channel duration)
DK's are better(20k heal normally, not counting when Vamp BLood is active)
At burst magic

that is predictable and timed.

We just have so many QOL tools that are meant to make up for our other mitigation lacking. There is a real reason why in MoP they are cutting back and making DK's choose CD's. It should come at a "passive" increase to Quality of Life, because without access to all of it, the DK tank is left floundering for ways to stay alive. It is better in 4.3 than previously, but we still use a ton of CD's.

We make every other tank look silly at big burst hits that we can time. This list doesn't even include Bone Shield, or Icebound Fortitude, or Blood Shield / Death Strike.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:38 pm

Amirya wrote:Since I've not yet seen the fight, can ranged pets attack the tendons or no? I'm thinking something like a Wind Serpent/Imp.


Dunno, I'd never bring a WS unless we needed the buff. I'll have to test once we get to Spine in normal DS, not worth the effort on LFR.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Amirya » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:56 pm

I figure WS is better than Nothing, is why I wonder.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby theckhd » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:45 pm

Lieris wrote:
Milius wrote:That may be true we don't scale much wit gear, But I'd hardly say Prot Paladins are the weakest of the four atm.


Well we are and have been since Firelands heroic farming. With Dragon Soul gear the other tanks just pull further away and there are tank killer abilities that make block meaningless. It's a double whammy of suck.


Your impressions are highly colored by the fact that you raid 10-man. Paladins were arguably the strongest tank in 25H Firelands, solely because of block cap. The scaling issues that Treck has been bringing up are completely valid, but really didn't apply in Firelands. At that point, warriors had to give up a significant amount of health to even try to block cap and DKs had the problem of being 2-shottable because they lacked the passive survivability that 4.3 granted them.

The situation was completely reversed in 10H, because the entirety of 10-man heroic firelands was fairly under-tuned compared to 25. Bosses hit for a decent bit less on 10H than 25H, which more or less eliminated the advantage that being able to block-cap gave us. That opened up the door for DKs to be the top 10H tank, simply because when you're not in danger of being 2-shot, the massive self-healing they can provide becomes very attractive.

That said, there are to main reasons I think we're falling behind in DS: Unblockable burst (as you noted), and an inferior 4-piece set bonus. Don't get me wrong, I like our set bonus, but now that we've seen the encounters it's clear that being able to bring multiple raid-wide cooldowns is very strong in progression. Especially when that set bonus adds a raid-wide Last Stand to the cooldown map. It's no coincidence that the two tanks whose 4-pieces are RaidStands are the ones KIN called stronger for progression.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby mavfin » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:47 pm

Shoju wrote:We make every other tank look silly at big burst hits that we can time. This list doesn't even include Bone Shield, or Icebound Fortitude, or Blood Shield / Death Strike.


And, yeah, that's why they're changing it in MoP. With that list, we're basically back to 3-drake Sartharion times with DKs and time-able big hits. And yes, right now you do need it to make up for lack of passives.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:59 pm

Amirya wrote:I figure WS is better than Nothing, is why I wonder.


Need to balance against the rest of the fight on regular, and see the difference. Might just go MM for that fight.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Steve » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:07 pm

I don't think it's possible to consistently generate content that can both challenge world first guilds and be balanced for every class in each role without making classes within each role functionally identical.

In other words, someone is always getting the short end of the stick in this context. Just keep in mind this isn't the context within which most of us actually play. The heroic content will likely (well, definitely) be nerfed significantly before most people get to it, resulting in relaxed group composition requirements.
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