Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:11 pm

Kihra wrote:10k is the typical fully stacked heal. The 20k numbers are on the Madness fight where it benefits from a triple scale. Max health +20%, damage done +20%, healing done +20%.

Makes sense. Still, 10k is a pretty reasonable heal.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Valour » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:15 pm

My initial reaction was similar to many of yours. I saw Souldrinker for the first time and thought "Oh, what the hell?"

Now, like many of you, I'm reconsidering my position. I'm in agreement with Theck and Khira.

Remember, the key is to combine short-term thinking with long-term thinking.

Short-term, sure I can see arguments why as we're still in mostly FL heroic gear that we don't feel comfortable giving up CTC for this proc. It's arguable, and I have a feeling Souldrinker is still worth it anyway, but it's clear the argument could go either way.

But, here's the real consideration: long term thinking. Imagine yourself with mostly DS heroic gear on. You're going to be loaded up to hell with so much mastery that you'll be dumping it off everywhere. There's even a good chance that running with Dual-stam trinkets won't be optimal, because let's face it, that mastery proc is completely absurd for us Tankadins. If that's the case, you might still be using a Mastery trinket, which will only further the need for dumping it everywhere you can.

And here we see the scenario where Souldrinker is a very strong choice over other potential weapons. If you already have stamina gems in basically every socket, and you're already dumping Mastery, getting some extra CTC will be useless, and getting some extra avoidance will be marginally attractive at best. Plenty of situations (Tetanus comes to mind...) illustrate how avoidance can't always save the day, and in such situations there's a much better chance that Souldrinker will save your life instead of some extra avoidance %.

Also, Treckie I'm surprised to see that you don't endorse this weapon, it seems that it's a clear winner in terms of DPS, and I know that you've been avidly supporting bumping our DPS through Exp/Hit in other threads. The proc gives us a nice damage boost and basically matches extra stamina (assuming it procs sometime during a death event), I would think you would love it! :D
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Treck » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:28 pm

Well, actually i just said that it might be more usefull for dpsers.
Also said it does seem to be BiS for tanks, in both ways survival and dps(theres an agi weapon that doesn shadowdmg on procc, anyone care to see how much dps thatone stands for?)
Ive also seemed to have understated the procc a bit in terms of healing, mainly that it doesnt seem to have an internal CD beeing the big one.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby daishan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:46 pm

Hey, i'm a bit of a nub when it comes to world of logs but here's a parse from earlyer with and without the seal of insight glyph http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0iafztgm71yj0s5o/

As you can see for the 1st couple of minutes Drain Life heals for 6459-6461 then at 17:36:01 i switched to SoI glyph and seal and Drain Life started healing for 6976-6979, the glyph and seal are the only things I changed, i still had 203k hp.
It's more than a 5% buff to the heal so i'm unsure how the glyph is reacting to it.

Code: Select all
[17:32:56.372] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:04.349] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:09.533] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:22.774] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:33:56.533] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:07.068] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:07.068] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:34:50.030] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:58.894] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:36:01.147] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6976)
[17:36:32.115] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:35.114] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:35.829] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6979)
[17:36:40.210] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:43.059] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:45.454] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:53.496] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:01.124] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:03.544] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:04.327] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6979)
[17:37:06.326] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:09.110] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:14.321] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:19.357] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:22.128] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:22.846] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6976)
[17:37:24.680] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:32.488] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:37.688] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:42.905] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:48.144] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:50.988] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
Last edited by daishan on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:18 pm

That's really odd. Here's a log I took earlier when trying to replicate your results: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7lit ... rw15l/log/

Can we get a third party to run some tests? I'm going to dig some more.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:39 pm

daishan wrote:Hey, i'm a bit of a nub when it comes to world of logs but here's a parse from earlyer with and without the seal of insight glyph http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0iafztgm71yj0s5o/


I am guessing that it's Earth and Moon from a boomkin (8% spell damage).

It is applied at:

[17:35:33.799] Raider's Training Dummy afflicted by Earth and Moon from Naizu

And kept up for the rest of your log. Probably had nothing to do with Seal of Insight.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:48 pm

Well, the 6979 is 8% more than the 6461; SoI glyph should add only 5%, unless there's another weird interaction somewhere.

I still haven't been able to replicate any increase with SoI glyph.

I don't know about a drive by kings either, since for 6979 he'd need a base 219371 hp (+16,258 (8%) over his base 203113), and Kings is only 5%.

Edit: and Kihra found it.

I WANT MY FIFTEEN MINUTES OF MY LIFE BACK. :twisted:
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:49 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Well, the 6979 is 8% more than the 6461; SoI glyph should add only 5%, unless there's another weird interaction somewhere.

I still haven't been able to replicate any increase with SoI glyph.

I don't know about a drive by kings either, since for 6979 he'd need a base 219371 hp (+16,258 (8%) over his base 203113), and Kings is only 5%.


See my previous post. It was Earth and Moon.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby daishan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:54 pm

Bah good spot the change in healing just coincided with me changing the glyph so well I didn't check dummy de buffs
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby PsiVen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:37 am

Based on those numbers I am inclined to agree that Souldrinker is worthwhile. But I don't find the stamina figures I mentioned earlier to be outlandish; most will be upgrading from 391 Mandible at the very least, forcing a lot of regemming. Obviously you would never use Hand of Morchok if you couldn't convert the mastery.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:28 am

PsiVen wrote:Based on those numbers I am inclined to agree that Souldrinker is worthwhile. But I don't find the stamina figures I mentioned earlier to be outlandish; most will be upgrading from 391 Mandible at the very least, forcing a lot of regemming. Obviously you would never use Hand of Morchok if you couldn't convert the mastery.


Yeah, given that Heroic Morchok is essentially a loot pinata, people with much lower gear levels may actually be confronted with the 403 vs. 410 choice, so in that sense you're right.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:41 pm

FWIW, the heal doesn't stack Corruption during the Purple Ooze phases of Heroic Yorsajh, so amounts to quite a lot of self healing in very short amounts of time for the fight.

Looking through the logs for some of our longer attempts (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/dczr ... DTYPE_HEAL) it frequently does stuff like heal 40k in 8 seconds with no overheal, proccing every few seconds throughout the fight.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Varil » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:35 pm

Got the 410 Morchok last night to replace my 378 Mandible. Will see how it goes on later HC's.
Haven't seen a souldrink drop yet though.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Juugimus » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:08 am

I used the Souldrinker on Heroic Baleroc and the proc was affected by the extra health. It did 23% of my overall damage and 12% of my healing with an average heal of 26K.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/bcj3 ... 431&e=2755
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:13 am

haha, thats hilarious.
You also get like 20-30% more health on the deathwing encounter, it surely wont do that much, but still, moar dps!
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fafhrd » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:25 pm

Yeah on DW it gets triple buffed, with 20% more health, 20% more damage, and I think 20% more healing.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby degre » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:42 pm

I'm not sure about the healing, as the healing buff is a buff to the healers, so healing done, while as far as I've understood the souldrinker is boosted instead by receiving buffs like divinity or field dressing.

So you can boost the received heal but the one produced remain the same.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm drunk and I shouldn't be browing forums...
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Jaitee » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:24 pm

Juugimus wrote:I used the Souldrinker on Heroic Baleroc and the proc was affected by the extra health. It did 23% of my overall damage and 12% of my healing with an average heal of 26K.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/bcj3 ... 431&e=2755



i ended the fight with it doing a shade under 17k damage a tick iirc my total DPS at the end of the fight was something along the lines of 26k
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Jaitee » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:26 pm

degre wrote:I'm not sure about the healing, as the healing buff is a buff to the healers, so healing done, while as far as I've understood the souldrinker is boosted instead by receiving buffs like divinity or field dressing.

So you can boost the received heal but the one produced remain the same.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm drunk and I shouldn't be browing forums...


the madness of deathwing +20% healing is applied to everyone next time you are on it check your buff bar and look for the green dragon picture since most people do ysera first though its the first to go and its quite nice on the big adds in p2 especially if you have both adds next to each other AS can proc it twice till one dies
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby degre » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:47 pm

Jaitee wrote:
degre wrote:I'm not sure about the healing, as the healing buff is a buff to the healers, so healing done, while as far as I've understood the souldrinker is boosted instead by receiving buffs like divinity or field dressing.

So you can boost the received heal but the one produced remain the same.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm drunk and I shouldn't be browing forums...


the madness of deathwing +20% healing is applied to everyone next time you are on it check your buff bar and look for the green dragon picture since most people do ysera first though its the first to go and its quite nice on the big adds in p2 especially if you have both adds next to each other AS can proc it twice till one dies

Sorry, I should have phrased it better...

I mean that Ysera buff is a buff to healing done, while the sword appears to benefit from effects causing extra healing received.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Hokahey » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:30 am

Treck wrote:Well, actually i just said that it might be more usefull for dpsers.


I believe it is BiS for Frost DW, and I'm willing to bet probably BiS for SMF Warriors, as well. However, I think it is more beneficial going to a Paladin or Warrior tank first. Its unlikely 1 of those specs, even while wielding 2 of them, is going to substantially outperform an appropriate 2h spec wielding the equivalent 2h weapon to justify delaying the tank's gear progression. That's just my opinion, though.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Jeremoot » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:51 am

The mace off of Ultraxion is a fairly nice alternative too. It's agility, but it makes up for it with the large amount of expertise.

I'll end up going with that if only because I'll be passing the Morchoks to our Frost DK.

That is, until I get a Souldrinker.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Ocin » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:14 pm

I'm actually worried about taking this from my Frost DK. He's saying the numbers are a ton higher for Souldrinker vs. Morchok, but I didn't get a chance to ask him where he was seeing the math. We also have a single-minded Fury Warrior, so that would be 4 going out to DPS before it hit the two tanks that would need them.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Lieris » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:24 pm

If you're having issues with enrage timers then definitely give the first one to the frost DK. It's a great weapon for us but a weapon upgrade doesn't make or break us like it does for DPS.

Don't pass for the warrior though, unlike the frost DK they have other options.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby djlar » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:16 am

Warriors can roll need on LFR on Souldrinker and get a bonus.. that's completely bullcrap..

Too bad is marked for both tank and DPS as bonus roll, on normal raid it will go to the tank no questions asked, and after the 2 tanks have it, maybe to the frost DK..

It's sad how many weapons and even some other gear is marked as DPS, say a ring with hit/expertise + mastery = DPS only item.. they went all out in marking all weapons useful for tank/dps and get bonus but not the way around..
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