Windwalk, outdated?

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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby degre » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:30 am

I haven't run any number, but at a glance I'd say that a 1000ap is probably going to make a change to our judgement's bubble in the order of the 3 digits, negligible, I just wanted to point out that our AP does affect the bubble*.

Oh, and I'd prefer a hundred hit rating myself if it was available, unfortunately we have to do with the 40 :cry:


Anyway, thanks to all for contributing, I think I've made up my mind for my next weapon.


*based on observation on my toon, last raid I was doing 25k judgement having around 8k AP plus vengeance, so even if 1000AP could give a straight 1000dmg, the shield would be for 250 :lol:
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:49 pm

Yeah, the additional .142*AP additional damage on Judgement is laughable, but I have a hard time with just the 40 hit on the PWC.

I may use it if it's the one missing piece to get me to 8%, but so much lost itemization ...
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:44 pm

I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby econ21 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:06 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge.


IIRC, it averages out at 0.7%, but I tend to agree. As someone geared just high enough for LFR when 4.3 hit, I am finding stuff in 10N DS hits much harder than in Firelands. Zon'ozz in particular was rough and we have not even got past Hagara yet. I could see a case for doing Firelands 10N in my threat gear, as I overgeared it but now there seems quite a big jump in item levels (even 5 mans giving 378) with associated gear checks and so my priority is back to what it should be: survivability.

However, I did put landslide on my warrior alt, who was only doing 5 mans. I think a threat set is the way to go for those, as PUGs are much worse now than they were for the Zuls (which scared the weaker players away) and we are back to wotlk style dungeons when few problems cannot be solved by the application of more dps.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby degre » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:39 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.

I thought the same all the time I wasn't CTC capped, every little help was welcome, but the problem now is that the dodge from the proc doesn't go towards capping our CTC but pushes mastery off the table as we get in the dirt already capped, so in my eyes it's a waste of itemisation, and I prefer to have a reliable and constant 102.4 from other sources and enchant my sword in a different way.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby lythac » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:44 am

degre wrote:
2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.

I thought the same all the time I wasn't CTC capped, every little help was welcome, but the problem now is that the dodge from the proc doesn't go towards capping our CTC but pushes mastery off the table as we get in the dirt already capped, so in my eyes it's a waste of itemisation, and I prefer to have a reliable and constant 102.4 from other sources and enchant my sword in a different way.


At our levels of DR, with Mastery being ~3 times as effective at CTC it devalues the worth of the gained dodge by a third (that amount of Mastery is pushed off and wasted for the duration of the buff). Uptime of the buff is 20-30%, so the value of the proc is around -

2/3 * 600 * 0.25 = ~100 Dodge (which doesn't contribute to achieving 102.4%, so devaluing it compared to normal constant dodge)

Windwalk can win over that IMO.

Not sure that 40 hit is preferable to ~100 dodge (which doesn't contribute to full CTC). As fuzzygeek mentioned if you are 40 hit short of 8% then it is worth considering.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby Dantriges » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:02 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Dantriges wrote:What´s the gain of the weapon chain?


Smaller than Landslide; the Matlab threat lythac linked above has theck's in-depth analysis and graphs.

The thing I'm thinking, however, is I want to make sure I hit more often, not necessarily harder. I'm interested in the hit for Souldrinker and Delayed Judgement procs, not because I want to do more dps.

In which case the weapon chain would give me the stats I want, at the cost of either RNG avoidance, or straight AP (Landslide). Neither 2pcT13 nor Souldrinker benefit from AP, afaict.


Ah thanks. Yeah I was thinking along the same lines. Just wanted o know what I give up.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:46 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.


On the flip side, additional tank DPS ending the fight X seconds sooner is (impossible to quantify amount) less raid damage taken, and that much less time for someone to screw up the fight and wipe the raid. :D

On something like Ultraxion where shit starts getting serious at the 5:30 mark, the difference between everyone being alive and everyone being dead is very realistically the amount of DPS the tank adds over the previous five minutes. This will be especially true for 10s, and in 25s you could argue that the 2% dodge with poor uptime would just get lost in the statistical noise.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby tlitp » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:49 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Yeah, the additional .142*AP additional damage on Judgement is laughable (...)

That's the base scaling coefficient. Once you factor in all the modifiers (talents/glyphs/buffs/crits a.s.o), the net scaling is roughly five times stronger (~0.7).
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:41 am

Ah, right. I had been doing some napkin math that wasn't turning out right but got distracted by something shiny and never followed up. This explains it -- thank you.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:16 pm

I look at it this way:

Landslide offers a minute chance of shortening the fight in a meaningful way, and a very small chance of proccing at the right time to kill an add right before a time limit.

Windwalk offers a minute chance of saving healer mana in a meaningful way, and a very small chance of directly preventing my death.

They are both rather unimpressive buffs, but it is far more common for a boss to hit me really hard than it is for my DPS to be important at a particular moment. For the same reason, as a DPS I would always choose the tiny DPS buff over the tiny chance to prevent a tank death via some proc.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby Ghastard » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:47 pm

Just got Souldrinker (normal DS one), putting Landslide for a bit. Check our logs, then move back to Windwalk....check our logs. Landslide is a welcomed change from Windwalk....makes me feel cool....for now.
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby Crashtest » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:48 am

Just wanted to add a different view to this
Windwalk gives a chance to dodge attack (meaning yes it can be random but as all things random - its randomness becomes average over course of 100's of boss pulls), this means you will take less damage with this enchant as it also changes blocked attacks which still gives you damage to dodge attacks which gives no damage and hence takes no healing.
No healing in return free's up healers to heal raid and will eventaully lead to 2 man healing a fight instead of 3 man healing it, so another way to look at it would be what would you rather have a tank which does slightly more dps or an extra dps as team can do with only 2 instead of 3 healers
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby degre » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:03 am

Crashtest wrote:Just wanted to add a different view to this
Windwalk gives a chance to dodge attack (meaning yes it can be random but as all things random - its randomness becomes average over course of 100's of boss pulls), this means you will take less damage with this enchant as it also changes blocked attacks which still gives you damage to dodge attacks which gives no damage and hence takes no healing.
No healing in return free's up healers to heal raid and will eventaully lead to 2 man healing a fight instead of 3 man healing it, so another way to look at it would be what would you rather have a tank which does slightly more dps or an extra dps as team can do with only 2 instead of 3 healers

We are aware of this and we are not saying that is useless, just being anal and saying that when the proc is active we're wasting itemisation points as mastery is pushed off the table and not used, on the other hand a +40 hit or landslide are never wasted.

You can agree or disagree, fair enough, but we know the mechanics :P
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Re: Windwalk, outdated?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:16 am

Crashtest wrote:Just wanted to add a different view to this
Windwalk gives a chance to dodge attack (meaning yes it can be random but as all things random - its randomness becomes average over course of 100's of boss pulls), this means you will take less damage with this enchant as it also changes blocked attacks which still gives you damage to dodge attacks which gives no damage and hence takes no healing.
No healing in return free's up healers to heal raid and will eventaully lead to 2 man healing a fight instead of 3 man healing it, so another way to look at it would be what would you rather have a tank which does slightly more dps or an extra dps as team can do with only 2 instead of 3 healers


Windwalker dodge proc will never, ever, ever (ever) make the difference between bringing 2 or 3 healers to a 10 man. You're talking about a 2% chance to dodge with a low uptime -- looking at 4 different logs, I have an overall uptime of ~11%, which contradicts the generally quoted 30% uptime (and frankly makes it look like complete shit)(redacted due to inaccuracy). This enchant might save your life once in a blue moon, but it won't change your healer's behaviour or demands on them at all.

Increasing RDPS to beat spawn timers, however, will drastically change overall healing requirements. On Ultraxion, Spine, and Madness, these are very real concerns.

Edit: quoted uptime figure was incorrect.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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