Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Astronomic » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:50 am

Passionario wrote:I really hope that they let whoever made the Warlock talents work on the rest of the trees.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Druids have some nice picks too
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:52 am

Speaking of Druids, is the Tree of Life form from the Incarnation talent the only version of it they have in the 5.0 system?
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Flex » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:02 am

[quote="Mannstein"]
Let me try to make a clear point on what I'm trying to say.
IF they are reducing the talents to 6levels to make them more atractive.../quote]

Actually it is 6 because the balancing implications for this system are huge, Imagine how many possible combination of talents there are now, now imagine how many there would be with 9 or 12 talent tiers.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:59 am

Mannstein wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
No question, in PVE it's 100% encounter dependent. every fight description can now start with a lvl1 choice or not.
Can you tell me what lvl1 choice you chose for old'patchy fights? (i for one do not believe everything "crawler" promises.)[/list]

So, your argument is that because one or two fights in the entire game contain no movement, the first tier talents are irrelevant or cookie-cutter for PvE?

IF you only read the second line, that's my argument, but if you read the whole two line, my argument is that it's a choice that will be 90% fight dependent for the most part. Only the ones that won't have movement you can spec "whatever you want".


Let me try and dispel you of that notion, then. Let's say a boss fight requires movement at specified intervals.
The person who chooses Speed of Light just activates the speed boost for those periods, end of story.
The person who chooses Long Arm of the Law may delay Judgement for a few seconds to line it up with the movement period.
The person who has Pursuit of Justice may decide to hold off on a finisher until the move is over.

All three choices successfully deal with the situation, albeit in different ways. The costs involved (DPS or survivability) are minimal. While there might be situations that are "ideal" for one talent, the other talents can be used to handle the situation adequately. Speed of Light is in some sense the outlier here, since it's only useful for movement periods separated by a minute or more.

Keep in mind that no other class has these exact 3 talents. They cannot design a boss encounter where the tank is expected to have Speed of Light, for example, because some of the other tanks won't. So in that perspective, none of these talents are likely to be strong enough to make or break an encounter. They're just a flavor choice that affects how you play.

Brekkie may call them "meaningless" talents as a result. I'd disagree. They won't make a difference in terms of your ability to down a boss, which is the metric that I think he's using to evaluate them. However, they do change the way you handle a given situation; the three paladins in the above example all do slightly different things with their rotation and spell choices to deal with a movement period. So while it doesn't have a strong effect on the net result (a boss kill), it has a significant effect on the way your character feels when you play it, which is just as important when you're designing a gameplay experience. It gives you that minor customization factor that makes the character suit your play style, just like transmogrification lets you adjust your outfit.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Mannstein » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:59 am

theckhd wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
theckhd wrote: So, your argument is that because one or two fights in the entire game contain no movement, the first tier talents are irrelevant or cookie-cutter for PvE?

IF you only read the second line, that's my argument, but if you read the whole two line, my argument is that it's a choice that will be 90% fight dependent for the most part. Only the ones that won't have movement you can spec "whatever you want".


Let me try and dispel you of that notion, then. Let's say a boss fight requires movement at specified intervals.
The person who chooses Speed of Light just activates the speed boost for those periods, end of story.
The person who chooses Long Arm of the Law may delay Judgement for a few seconds to line it up with the movement period.
The person who has Pursuit of Justice may decide to hold off on a finisher until the move is over.

I understand your point, i just disagre from it... for me it all depends on the fights...if you boss had the rush moments every 30s the first talend would be... not so good. So lets just agree to disagre?
As they say: "If is a big word".
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:32 pm

Basically it seems like the main complaint is that they didn't give Paladins (and some other classes) enough brand new stuff, they just took existing abilities and turned them into talents.

On the one hand I think the choice design here is fine on Blizzard's part. But on the other hand I can definitely understand the "we didn't get any shiny toys!" problem as well. It definitely helps to soften a blow like the radical change of the talent system if you're getting a bunch of new shit.

But the way I see it is, for the first time in 4 expansions, Paladins finally haven't gotten a whole new class to play. Sure the talent change generates differences but the changes they made don't feel as sweeping and widespread as the entire new Paladin class they created in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0. You could say that finally having some consistency is a good thing? Or possibly that, we got a new class so many times, now it's someone else's turn? Or maybe just that after 7 years Blizzard finally figured out what they want to do with us.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Ardrhyst » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:39 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Basically it seems like the main complaint is that they didn't give Paladins (and some other classes) enough brand new stuff, they just took existing abilities and turned them into talents.

On the one hand I think the choice design here is fine on Blizzard's part. But on the other hand I can definitely understand the "we didn't get any shiny toys!" problem as well. It definitely helps to soften a blow like the radical change of the talent system if you're getting a bunch of new shit.

But the way I see it is, for the first time in 4 expansions, Paladins finally haven't gotten a whole new class to play. Sure the talent change generates differences but the changes they made don't feel as sweeping and widespread as the entire new Paladin class they created in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0. You could say that finally having some consistency is a good thing? Or possibly that, we got a new class so many times, now it's someone else's turn? Or maybe just that after 7 years Blizzard finally figured out what they want to do with us.


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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:59 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Basically it seems like the main complaint is that they didn't give Paladins (and some other classes) enough brand new stuff, they just took existing abilities and turned them into talents.


I'm not wanting to enter the debate, but I saw this, and wanted to comment. This was part of my dissatisfaction with GANK. Let's see, we'll give holy a new heal, we'll give ret a cool damage boost, Prot.... Screw it, Take away their major tank cooldown, and give it back to them as GANK. They wont notice.

On the one hand I think the choice design here is fine on Blizzard's part. But on the other hand I can definitely understand the "we didn't get any shiny toys!" problem as well. It definitely helps to soften a blow like the radical change of the talent system if you're getting a bunch of new shit.


I completely agree. It also makes it feel new, and exciting, and fresh. When you keep the same old stuff, it really, as in the case of GANK leaves you wondering why they bothered.

But the way I see it is, for the first time in 4 expansions, Paladins finally haven't gotten a whole new class to play. Sure the talent change generates differences but the changes they made don't feel as sweeping and widespread as the entire new Paladin class they created in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0. You could say that finally having some consistency is a good thing? Or possibly that, we got a new class so many times, now it's someone else's turn? Or maybe just that after 7 years Blizzard finally figured out what they want to do with us.


I wouldn't hold my breath on the lack of a major overhaul until beta :)
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:21 pm

Shoju wrote:I wouldn't hold my breath on the lack of a major overhaul until beta :)


sad but true :(
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Kelaan » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:27 pm

I think the silver lining of getting Not New Stuff (for the class) is that we now frequently have options to get the toys we wanted from other trees of our class, and so do many other classes. Since we were unable to get mini-sprint, or snare cleanses, they may as well be New Shinies. Similarly, I bet Holy and Ret would LOVE a cheat-death cooldown in some situations.

Even without new spells, I'm really jazzed by this. I love that it lets me effectively have a spec for two ROLES (tank/dps, or holy/dps, etc), yet tailor each one more easily for PvE/PvP, or for special fight needs, without sacrificing the versatility of having multiple roles available. It's like if we were currently able to have quad-specs. :D
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Darielle » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Brekkie wrote:I dunno why Blizzard doesn't understand that you can't have choices that are BOTH Meaningful, AND Optional. You can only have one or the other. And if the choices are both meaningful, there will necessarily be a best choice.

The only thing they have power over is how frequently, and how much of a logistical hassle it will be, to change to the best option for whatever you are doing.

They are deluding themselves if they think they can make the choices "close enough" or "ambiguous enough" that people won't bother min/maxing and demanding that the playerbase as a whole also min/max or be considered bad.


It's a little more complex because you not only have your encounter, but also your raid to take into consideration.

Sure, the theoretical "best spec" for X fight might involve Veneration, but if you have a Ret who also has Veneration, do you bother switching specs? If you don't, what happens if the Ret dies - you can't clutch fill-in and res him right now.

If you need one knockback and there are three people in the raid who can knockback, do you bother switching your option? What if your option is the better one of everyone's knockback (e.g. not tied to a totem, or maybe it's BECAUSE it's tied to a totem).

It is close enough in the sense that having a DK kite or having a Y kite isn't going to make or break the encounter for you - but it is going to be meaningful in the sense that you may prefer X kiting for reasons unique to your raid, including that X does more damage, or Z is plain better at it.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Dantriges » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:19 pm

Oh yeah this will be funny.

So who specs for snares, who for counter snares, for raid protection stuff and who does the CC for today? :wink:
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Bladesong » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:00 pm

I think the biggest issue players are having is just dealing with the death of tradition. Talent trees have always been a part of WoW (and RPGs in general) and it will be strange to not have them even if, realistically, losing them won't affect our gameplay at all.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby melisandyr » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:24 am

Similarly, I bet Holy and Ret would LOVE a cheat-death cooldown in some situations.

Bubble gives this, albeit in a slightly different form.

Since Prot can't use Bubble, we get Ardent Defender in the current model. In the new model, you'll be able to have both as holy and prot.

I regularly moan about this, and it's the same point about GANK above I think too - I would like some more prot specific stuff.

I think the movement talents are great, because this addresses one of our long-term concerns around the spec.

But I do want a bit more. Maybe part of the developers' fear is that last two times we did get a bit more as a spec, we were so overpowered in TOTGC that we became the tank of choice? Same story, to a lesser extent, with Word of Glory at the start of Cataclysm.

It wouldn't take much. I've definitely posted before about my previous ideas to:
- give prot an ability to make bubble useful - such as doubling the effectiveness of our hand spells for the next 10 seconds
- an ability to exchange places with another raid member with built in taunt (I am slightly disappointed priests got the health swap, as I thought this would be a really good talent for prot)

Direction wise, I wouldn't be disappointed if we saw:
- bears doing bear things (whatever those are - stopping lots of attacks with their thick layer of fat & fur, and having a small shield?)
- blood dks doing big heals, infrequently
- warriors doing big blocks, infrequently
- paladins doing small heals and small blocks frequently

For this model, I'd like to see a few healing spells made instant for prot at a small effect. Changes to seal of insight to make it more desirable in some situations, and so on.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Aanar » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:15 am

One thing I'm hoping happens as a result of this is that they can give out more of the core rotation abilities at earlier levels. They did this at least a little bit by giving something at level 10 when you chose a spec (felguard for demo, avenger's shield, etc.)

My 2nd pal is prot and level 24. With the cooldown on WoG, there's nothing to do with holy power most of the time, so its down to avenger's, crusader strike, judge, and wait. Bleh. Maybe I'm just too used to prot at 85. :roll:
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