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Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Kelaan » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:07 pm

Yay for being able to Holy Shield yourself. I hope it's not mandatory.

I think that the point of the talents is to give quality-of-life choices which are almost always irrelevant (I mean, we allow mages to glyph for a penguin rather than a sheep, after all), but can be personally meaningful, or tailored to your group. A lot of the bacon-saving talents, for example, seem to hinge a fair bit on the fight itself (e.g., do you need Cheat Death, or merely a powerful cooldown?), and on the healers you have healing you.

You can choose to choose nothing from there (or, close your eyes when selecting T1 talents) if you want, and that's a fine choice too.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Archeth » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:33 pm

Maybe that's just a problem with the paladin talents, and logically a system that's built on utility talents will have obvious advantages for certain fights, no doubt. But since you can't radically alter your playstyle anyway it's okay to have choices that sometimes depend on what you're fighting instead of how you want to play your prot paladin. Something like "cleanse snares" can be optional without being mandatory, if you want you can play better and avoid stuff like Keristrasza's freezing debuff and take some other talent, or you can take the snare removal as a QoL talent if the other ones don't appeal to you and don't bring anything meaningful to the fight you're doing.

Meanwhile you're saying they're all fight-dependent but then you exclude a lot of stuff based on preference (the "RNG" tank talent, or the "PvP utility" talents) so I'm not sure Blizzard's current iteration of paladin talents fails as much as you say.

It's Blizzard's job to make the alternatives appealing but at this point in Mists' development I'd say it's unfair to claim the whole system is broken because some talents are more "no-brainers" than others. Judging by that blog, they're clearly aware of the possible problems they're facing (and again, the issues aren't present for all classes and specs equally).
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Koatanga » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:34 pm

I suspect we'll find, contrary to design goals, that there are certain talents that we'll all take.

In the first tier, for example, we get either:
60% movement for 6 seconds, on demand, 1-min cooldown.
45% movement for 3 seconds after successful Judgement
10% passive movement + 10% per HP charge

For a tank using HP as a resource in the active mitigation model, storing 3 HP is not very attractive. As Judgement is part of our rotation, it is unwieldy to tie it to judgement, because the 3-seocmd window in which we need to move could easily fall when Judgement is on CD. So the first seems the most likely one to go for as it provides a closer for pulling with a bit of front-loaded damage which is really only relevant on the pull anyway.

Yes there may be fights where we need to forgo our active mitigation because movement is Just That Important, but it would be pretty gimmicky. We're not really very good kiters because so many of our abilities require melee range.

And yes there could be a fight where we need movement burst more frequently than every minute, but still need to use active mitigation, so we might opt for the on-Judgement one, but I really don't see it being our bread-and-butter because it is so disruptive to our normal rotation.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Zalaria » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:56 pm

See, I disagree. If they don't change, my go-to plan is 10+10, since I'd rather have runspeed always up. I can always respec if a fight prefers one of the others since changing talents will be glyph-like.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Brekkie » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:00 pm

I dunno why Blizzard doesn't understand that you can't have choices that are BOTH Meaningful, AND Optional. You can only have one or the other. And if the choices are both meaningful, there will necessarily be a best choice.

The only thing they have power over is how frequently, and how much of a logistical hassle it will be, to change to the best option for whatever you are doing.

They are deluding themselves if they think they can make the choices "close enough" or "ambiguous enough" that people won't bother min/maxing and demanding that the playerbase as a whole also min/max or be considered bad.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:14 pm

Koatanga wrote:And yes there could be a fight where we need movement burst more frequently than every minute, but still need to use active mitigation, so we might opt for the on-Judgement one, but I really don't see it being our bread-and-butter because it is so disruptive to our normal rotation.


Eh, i don't buy it. Judgement may be a part of the rotation, but it's also got a 6s cooldown and is ranged. Also we're going to have a lot of buttons to hit that will take precedence over Judgement. So if there's a boss that requires you to say, run at a mob or away from a mob, chances are Judgement will be available to hit or available within 1-2 seconds when that happens. Furthermore I don't see a huge penalty for conserving your Judgement cooldown for 3s if you know when you're going to need the speed boost.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Eh, i don't buy it. Judgement may be a part of the rotation, but it's also got a 6s cooldown and is ranged. Also we're going to have a lot of buttons to hit that will take precedence over Judgement.


Actually, that's unlikely. Remember that Judgement will be a Holy Power generator in 5.0, so using J frequently will be important for mitigation (high SotR uptime).
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:28 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Eh, i don't buy it. Judgement may be a part of the rotation, but it's also got a 6s cooldown and is ranged. Also we're going to have a lot of buttons to hit that will take precedence over Judgement.


Actually, that's unlikely. Remember that Judgement will be a Holy Power generator in 5.0, so using J frequently will be important for mitigation (high SotR uptime).


Yeah but with a 6s cooldown, it should be up when we need it... is putting it off for 2s going to kill you?
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:53 pm

I think T1 Paladin is a perfect example of their design goal. Every single talent can be used effectively depending on the fight.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Archeth » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:30 pm

Brekkie wrote:I dunno why Blizzard doesn't understand that you can't have choices that are BOTH Meaningful, AND Optional. You can only have one or the other. And if the choices are both meaningful, there will necessarily be a best choice.

The only thing they have power over is how frequently, and how much of a logistical hassle it will be, to change to the best option for whatever you are doing.

They are deluding themselves if they think they can make the choices "close enough" or "ambiguous enough" that people won't bother min/maxing and demanding that the playerbase as a whole also min/max or be considered bad.

Judging by the debates about runspeed talents in early Cataclysm, I'm not convinced their mission is that hopeless. I think you're too hung up on the words. Meaningful and optional doesn't mean every choice has to be useful as well as desirable to the same degree as another all the time, it just means people get to adapt to preferences and/or circumstances without obvious or reproducible negative effects, which obviously works better with talents that don't directly affect eg. DPS output, tanking ability etc.

They're not there yet but some trees look better than others in this regard, and it doesn't actually contradict their goals if in some situations choice A is usually going to be superior to B for spec X (but in reality not always because the mission, the team and the players' performance varies). Most utility already hinges on trading stuff like theoretical DPS increases which pale in comparison to the possible boost to mobility or survivability can give unless there is absolutely no need for either of the latter two, and the new talents are supposed to be more of that with some fun and new abilities thrown in.

There are obviously going to be exceptions and some no-brainer talents but overall? I don't see how what they're trying to achieve is wrong or inferior to what they have right now, let alone doomed to fail.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Passionario » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:19 pm

I really hope that they let whoever made the Warlock talents work on the rest of the trees.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Brekkie » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:13 pm

There is nothing theoretical about DPS boosts from movement speed increases.
They can actually be calculated quite easily. DPS of player x time in seconds that player would arrive in range faster.

For all movement speed options, you can make a mathematical statement to the effect of "If, in the fight, you spend more than X seconds in motion, Talent will be a DPS increase of Y". That is VERY easy to plan on, with even very basic understandings of the fights.
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby poptart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:48 am

For Holy, I think the choices end up being somewhat interesting.

Give me healer CC? Yes, please! Repentance would be a wonderful thing for a Healadin to have. Sure, the 30s stun would be good too, but not as much as having Repent.

More refunding of Holy Power? Yes, please! Multiple talents that give me more Holy Power! Hot diggity.

Tier 1? Each has their place but I certainly see PoJ as being the "all-around" choice with either of the other two being VERY useful in situations. I can much more easily time my Judgement to when I need to speed boost rather than have it in my rotation.

For Holy, the talent choices, I think, do what the designers are intending; giving the Holy spec Healadin choices that are not game-changers but instead are "flavor."

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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Mannstein » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:03 am

theckhd wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
No question, in PVE it's 100% encounter dependent. every fight description can now start with a lvl1 choice or not.
Can you tell me what lvl1 choice you chose for old'patchy fights? (i for one do not believe everything "crawler" promises.)[/list]

So, your argument is that because one or two fights in the entire game contain no movement, the first tier talents are irrelevant or cookie-cutter for PvE?

IF you only read the second line, that's my argument, but if you read the whole two line, my argument is that it's a choice that will be 90% fight dependent for the most part. Only the ones that won't have movement you can spec "whatever you want".
theckhd wrote:Also, you can Holy Shield yourself, not just others. You're misreading the talent, which has the exact same wording as WoG (or at least, it did last I looked; presumably that didn't change in the recent updates).

Lack of reading(or memory) abilities on my part sorry. Point taken.

Let me try to make a clear point on what I'm trying to say.
IF they are reducing the talents to 6levels to make them more atractive... Then make them more atractive... DO NO make them "a lot of talents that would have been quite useful in T11 and T12 heroic progression.".
I have 6 talents? Give ME 6 PALADIN TALENTS... (or 18abilities), not a shorter stun, a ffs CC or a bloody "glyph" for a penguin rather than a sheep.
But anyway Archeth is right is still too early to go /rage :D
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Re: Dev WC - Seeing the Forest for the Talent Trees

Postby Archeth » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:44 am

Passionario wrote:I really hope that they let whoever made the Warlock talents work on the rest of the trees.

This, although I wonder how the (IMO superior) state of the warlock trees hinges on the fact that Blizzard said warlocks and druids needed more new talent ideas, if that's the case it would be harder to reproduce that design for the other classes.

It would be interesting to know why they think this. Is it because we don't get as many talents that aren't either fancy ways to describe "+DoT damage" or spells that need to be turned into spec benefits?
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