Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

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Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Drecca » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:49 pm

Hey all!

I searched this specific forum for what my title said, didn't find what I was looking for, hence the thread ;)

Anyway, is there any math out there that says which way to gem for DPS (assume the tank has Souldrinker). I read the math on Souldrinker, and it's a higher DPS weapon than Heroic Morchok's. But what about all the other abilities? I keep myself hit capped and expertise soft capped, along with block capped.

So with vengeance scaling very quickly, and how we double dip on strength (SP and AP).. would gemming for Stamina increase dps, or wold strength gems be the way to go?
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Jeremoot » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:51 pm

Stamina is actually a very good DPS stat (even in easy content) now that Vengeance stacks in 3 hits. It's not too far behind Strength to begin with, and the effect on Souldrinker would definitely push it closer. While it's probably not enough for Stamina to eclipse Strength point for point, Stamina is worth less itemization points than Strength and is thereby easier to get. In conclusion-- you're much better off putting your points into Stamina in any situation where you're going to be getting hit consistently, especially with Souldrinker.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Drecca » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:35 pm

thanks for the explanation Jeremoot. I'm off to regem all the 40 strength gems off into something-stamina :)

Just to get it out there that I'm not crazy... I worry about my personal DPS even as a tank, especially in a 10 man where any little extra bit helps.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby tlitp » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:46 am

It's true that a Souldrinker will help Stamina close the gap to Strength. However, even a 410 Souldrinker only squeezes less than 2 DPS from 10 itemization points (i.e. 15 Stamina, before all modifiers), which is insufficient to surpass Strength. If the damage output is your primary concern, Strength is still (marginally) better at it.

EDIT : If you really want to optimize that Souldrinker, do pursue the expertise hard-cap. It's better than both Strength/Stamina.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:01 am

tlitp wrote:It's true that a Souldrinker will help Stamina close the gap to Strength. However, even a 410 Souldrinker only squeezes less than 2 DPS from 10 itemization points (i.e. 15 Stamina, before all modifiers), which is insufficient to surpass Strength. If the damage output is your primary concern, Strength is still (marginally) better at it.

EDIT : If you really want to optimize that Souldrinker, do pursue the expertise hard-cap. It's better than both Strength/Stamina.


According to the Matlabadin project, Strength is only 19.7% (no Souldrinker) ahead of Stamina point for point. Gemwise 60/45 (75/50) is a 50% increase. From that I would infer that Stamina is ahead of Strength per itemization point, where am I making my mistake?
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Kihra » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:18 am

Jeremoot wrote:
tlitp wrote:It's true that a Souldrinker will help Stamina close the gap to Strength. However, even a 410 Souldrinker only squeezes less than 2 DPS from 10 itemization points (i.e. 15 Stamina, before all modifiers), which is insufficient to surpass Strength. If the damage output is your primary concern, Strength is still (marginally) better at it.

EDIT : If you really want to optimize that Souldrinker, do pursue the expertise hard-cap. It's better than both Strength/Stamina.


According to the Matlabadin project, Strength is only 19.7% (no Souldrinker) ahead of Stamina point for point. Gemwise 60/45 (75/50) is a 50% increase. From that I would infer that Stamina is ahead of Strength per itemization point, where am I making my mistake?


The charts are in terms of itemization points, not raw stat numbers. The charts are showing you how much better 10 Strength is than 15 Stamina.... not 1 Strength vs. 1 Stamina.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Drecca » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:11 pm

So if I'm understanding this correctly, purely from a DPS point of view (not survival), Strength is still ~20% better than stamina at full vengeance?
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Kihra » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:01 pm

Drecca wrote:So if I'm understanding this correctly, purely from a DPS point of view (not survival), Strength is still ~20% better than stamina at full vengeance?


Yeah. A 40 Strength gem is 20% better or so than a 60 Stamina gem at full Vengeance.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:08 pm

Kihra wrote:
Jeremoot wrote:
tlitp wrote:It's true that a Souldrinker will help Stamina close the gap to Strength. However, even a 410 Souldrinker only squeezes less than 2 DPS from 10 itemization points (i.e. 15 Stamina, before all modifiers), which is insufficient to surpass Strength. If the damage output is your primary concern, Strength is still (marginally) better at it.

EDIT : If you really want to optimize that Souldrinker, do pursue the expertise hard-cap. It's better than both Strength/Stamina.


According to the Matlabadin project, Strength is only 19.7% (no Souldrinker) ahead of Stamina point for point. Gemwise 60/45 (75/50) is a 50% increase. From that I would infer that Stamina is ahead of Strength per itemization point, where am I making my mistake?


The charts are in terms of itemization points, not raw stat numbers. The charts are showing you how much better 10 Strength is than 15 Stamina.... not 1 Strength vs. 1 Stamina.


The charts say right at the top:
(per point of stat, not itemization-normalized)


That would suggest the opposite.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Kihra » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:28 pm

Jeremoot wrote:The charts say right at the top:
(per point of stat, not itemization-normalized)


That would suggest the opposite.


Maybe we aren't looking at the same charts. For example, I'm looking at the charts like this one:

Image

That chart is clearly labeled as per 10 itemization points.
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:28 pm

I'm looking at the table right above it.

Code: Select all
SHPS and stat weights
        SHPS/10   Stat Weights
        ipoints   (per point of stat, not itemization-normalized)
exp    -0.26067    3.2726
hit     0.32607     2.171
str     0.45788     1.305
ap      0.31415   0.59431
sta     0.28797    1.0896
crit    0.27601   0.95184
agi     0.24367   0.82883
haste         0   0.36202
sp      0.26692   0.22069
int     0.22586   0.19033
mas           0         0


1.0896*60 > 1.305*40

Even more so with Souldrinker. The only way I can see this being possible is if gems don't follow itemization point rules?
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:13 pm

Jeremoot wrote:I'm looking at the table right above it.

Nice catch. There was a bug with the stat weight code; it wasn't dividing by the itemization factors like I thought it was. So the graphs were fine, but the stat weights I was generating based on that data were borked. The bug is now fixed, and the post updated with new values:

Code: Select all
    SHPS and stat weights
            SHPS/10   Stat Weights
            ipoints   (per point of stat, not itemization-normalized)
    exp    -0.26067    3.2726
    hit     0.32607     2.171
    str     0.45788     1.305
    ap      0.31415   0.59431
    sta     0.28797   0.72637
    crit    0.27601   0.95184
    agi     0.24367   0.82883
    haste         0   0.36202
    sp      0.26692   0.22069
    int     0.22586   0.19033
    mas           0         0
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Re: Strength Gemming vs. Stamina gemming for Prot DPS

Postby Jeremoot » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:27 pm

Okay then disregard everything I previously posted in this thread, it was all Theck's fault. :P
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