4.3 - Spending Valor Points

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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby degre » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:05 am

Awyndel wrote:Remember we can get the pvp cloak for just 7 wins in arena. It's quite a bit better then most other options for ctc/stamina.

Not really... or at least, before I say any crap, is this the one you mean or have I missed something?

If this is the one, while is definitely easily obtainable and would provide a quick upgrade I don't see it as any better then the VP one.

If you've been raiding a bit you should be ctc capped already and mastery is not necessarily your much needed stat any longer, with pure avoidance and stamina now becoming way more interesting, also consider that while the VP one is 397, the PvP is barely a 403, so doesn't have much itemisation on top of the other and most of it is lost in resilience, this leaves you with mastery being useful and only 40% of the resilience to use.

The more stamina isn't technically true as you have 24 more stamina on the PvP but a yellow gem on the VP which you could socket with a green gem and be 6 stamina over, also, the socket itself would give you a nice extra ctc boost, with epic gems shifting the balance even more.

The extra 100 strength is negligible in terms of avoidance (0.07/0.08%) and far outweighed in terms of threat by expertise.

I don't have the time to get in too many details now and do any calculation, but on a brief observation I like more the VP one and gives me the feeling that with a mastery reofrge of expertise and a green gem could potentially give the same ctc as the other but extra threat, I have however to say that the PvP could be instead a useful replacement once the season kicks in to buy you time and a nice upgrade from your 378 while you wait for the VPs.


Disclaimer: all of the above if I've got the right cloaks :lol:
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:33 am

I will be using the Valor trinket-- at least through normal mode DS. But that's because I plan on sacrificing a lot of CTC elsewhere to soft-cap expertise and cap hit. I'll also be picking up the Crit + Str on use skull for 5-mans or other gimmicky farm content.

At this stage in the game I'd rather have expertise and hit caps than another 1% avoidance after DRs. Not to mention it gives me a powerful (avoidance-wise) on-use that I can use during predictable melee burst if I see necessary.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:18 pm

I'm not certain you need to use the valor trinket to preserve CTC and get hit/xp to 8/26. I'm at 4/24 right now, with two stam trinkets. After Tuesday when I pick up some badge gear (cloak, boots), that'll change a bit. Although we may still be looking for hit; all my hit is coming from rep ring, theck's ring (thanks for the loaner), and the tier gloves. Oh, and the Ryo cloak, so I guess hit will be even more constrained. The hit trinket is good for 2.67% hit, so when the excess stam is less necessary I'm honestly probably going to run that. I'm disappointed there's no upgrade to the License to Slay.

Although I guess it also depends on whether or not you are a BS/JC. I continue to be flabbergasted at how ridiculous the synergy between the two is.

Where do you plan on supplementing your hit Jere?
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Awyndel » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:42 pm

The cloak is the best option for "ctc/stamina ratio". And as long as I am not wearing 2 stamina trinkets and gemming/flasking full stamina I will be looking for more of that. After that point I will prolly get the valor cloak to get more avoidance/dps.

But for the moment it's a very nice upgrade, considering it's free. I am just suggesting that ppl could get the pvp cloak and therefor delay the valor purchase untill they have the other items.

I realise it has no avoidance/threat stats. So your milage may vary depending on your own setup/preference. I am merely stating the numbers I use.

You cannot reforge resilience btw, but the 6 ilvl's are somewhat compensating.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:16 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Where do you plan on supplementing your hit Jere?


My guild has decided they're not interested in going back for H FL so the Rhyolith cape is out of question for me. Here's my proposed plan for 4PC Prot, Full CTC, Exp Soft-cap, and Hit cap while constrained to DS Normals:

Head: Faceguard of Radiant Glory (DodgeRating -> HitRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Enchant - Arcanum of the Earthen Ring
Gems - Eternal Shadowspirit Diamond (Meta Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket)

Neck: Guardspike Choker (DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)

Shoulder: Backbreaker Spaulders (CritRating -> HitRating)
Source - Greater Cache of the Aspects (Drop; Dragon Soul 25 Normal)
Enchant - Greater Inscription of Unbreakable Quartz
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket), Solid Deepholm Iolite (Red Socket)

Back: Indefatigable Greatcloak (ParryRating -> MasteryRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Enchant - Enchant Cloak - Protection
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket)

Chest: Chestguard of Radiant Glory (ParryRating -> HitRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Enchant - Enchant Chest - Greater Stamina
Gems - Solid Deepholm Iolite (Red Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket), Solid Deepholm Iolite (Blue Socket)

Wrist: Titanguard Wristplates (ParryRating -> HitRating)
Source - Titanguard Wristplates (Crafted; Blacksmithing)
Enchant - Enchant Bracer - Superior Dodge
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket)

Hands: Handguards of Radiant Glory (DodgeRating -> MasteryRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Enchant - Enchant Gloves - Greater Mastery
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket)

Waist: Runescriven Demon Collar (HasteRating -> ExpertiseRating)
Source - Hagara the Stormbinder (Drop; Dragon Soul)
Extra Socket - Yes
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Prismatic Socket)

Legs: Legguards of Radiant Glory (ParryRating -> MasteryRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Enchant - Drakehide Leg Armor
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket), Puissant Elven Peridot (Blue Socket)

Feet: Stillheart Warboots (ParryRating -> HitRating)
Source - Lesser Cache of the Aspects (Drop)
Enchant - Enchant Boots - Mastery
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket), Solid Chimera's Eye (Blue Socket)

Finger: Ring of Torn Flesh (CritRating -> HitRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket)

Finger: Hardheart Ring (ParryRating -> HitRating)
Source - Boss Drop (Drop; Dragon Soul)
Gems - Solid Chimera's Eye (Blue Socket)

Trinket: Fire of the Deep
Source - Vendors (Vendor)

Trinket: Indomitable Pride
Source - Boss Drop (Drop; Dragon Soul)

Main Hand: Hand of Morchok (CritRating -> HitRating)
Source - Morchok (Drop; Dragon Soul)
Enchant - Enchant Weapon - Windwalk
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Red Socket)

Off Hand: Blackhorn's Mighty Bulwark (DodgeRating -> HitRating)
Source - Warmaster Blackhorn (Drop)
Enchant - Enchant Shield - Mastery
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Yellow Socket), Solid Chimera's Eye (Blue Socket)

Relic: Stoutheart Talisman (ParryRating -> HitRating)
Source - Vendors (Vendor)
Gems - Puissant Elven Peridot (Prismatic Socket)


Raid buffed results:
    Health 237773.64
    Armor 42920.45
    CTC 102.60 %
    Physical Hit 8.02 %
    Expertise 4.82 %

Glyphed Seal expertise isn't added yet in those numbers.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:30 pm

Very interesting. Thank you.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby degre » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Awyndel wrote:The cloak is the best option for "ctc/stamina ratio". And as long as I am not wearing 2 stamina trinkets and gemming/flasking full stamina I will be looking for more of that. After that point I will prolly get the valor cloak to get more avoidance/dps.

But for the moment it's a very nice upgrade, considering it's free. I am just suggesting that ppl could get the pvp cloak and therefor delay the valor purchase untill they have the other items.

I realise it has no avoidance/threat stats. So your milage may vary depending on your own setup/preference. I am merely stating the numbers I use.

You cannot reforge resilience btw, but the 6 ilvl's are somewhat compensating.

Erm... no... considering as you say, which I forgot, that resilience can't be reforged, the VP cloak actually offers the best option for both CTC and stamina.

I do agree that the PvP one is good to get it in the while as an easy upgrade in the while, but there's really no comparison.

Have no time now to work out exact numbers, but get the VP cloak, shove in a green gem, reforge expertise to mastery and you will see that have more CTC and Stamina.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:56 pm

That being said, the PvP cloak isn't a bad stopgap if your VP income stream is spoken for.

The only problem being that it takes away from the Conq Point income, which must be funneled towards sexy, sexy S11 gear. :D
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby degre » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:34 pm

By the way, I've seen on WoWhead that there are heroics versions datamined of such items, are we sure there's no plan at all to let upgrade these items sooner or later?
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:41 pm

degre wrote:By the way, I've seen on WoWhead that there are heroics versions datamined of such items, are we sure there's no plan at all to let upgrade these items sooner or later?


With Blizzard, nothing is ever certain. But I will say that in previous patches they've datamined heroic versions of items that never became heroic available.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby degre » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:46 pm

Well, we got out of Firelands with a 378 cloak, guess we can get out of Dragon Soul with a 397.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:03 am

fuzzygeek wrote:PS fuck that trinket.

I'm not sure why you're so down on the trinket. It's not that bad, and the clicky is at least still useful at block-cap since it's avoidance. The other options in that slot are the equally weak (and arguably worse) Deathwing dodge trinket, a stam trinket with a useless mastery proc, and previous-tier trinkets. Note that I'm assuming you'll be using the "good" stamina trinket from Dragon Soul. It's just a bad tier for trinkets, I'm afraid.

That said, I probably would save the trinket until last as well. It's not a huge upgrade over the heroic Spidersilk, and I'll probably be aiming to be able to cap using Mirror as my mastery trinket if the on-use turns out to be helpful in heroic modes.

I already bought the relic, since I never upgraded mine in FL. I'll probably get the cloak next, as I prefer the raid drops in several of the categories, and as several others have noted this strategy doesn't "waste" any VP since both of those items can't be replaced. Plus it let me put two of the four epic gems I got into items I won't be replacing, giving them a slightly larger upgrade potential in the short-term (assuming you wouldn't put epic gems in a non-BiS item).
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:29 am

theckhd wrote:Plus it let me put two of the four epic gems I got into items I won't be replacing


Seriously? Four?

So far my record is a Nightstone, some Jaspers, and even worse-- some Zephyrites.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:09 am

Yeah. I had terrible luck on my warlock, but Theck picked up blue, red, and 2x purple epic gems from our full clear. Personally, I think the fact that you can get greens and blues is sort of stupid; I'd rather have a guaranteed 1-2 epic gems per clear, just to keep things equitable. But I also think keeping epic gems very limited in quantity is a weird change that doesn't add much to the game, so I'd be just as happy to see them widely available from a greater variety of sources.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:13 am

I like the green gems. My raiders hand them to me and I turn them in for the JC daily and pick up more tokens and patterns without having to buy and/or farm the ore/gems.

I only found one epic red gem so far. Handed it to Invis for his staff.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby degre » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:44 am

lol! this thread brought me luck, yesterday eve we went to DS, got my first epic gem which is a green one and I've turned it already into a mastery/stamina, guess in the next couple of days I'll be going straight for the cloak :mrgreen:
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:00 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure why you're so down on the trinket. It's not that bad, and the clicky is at least still useful at block-cap since it's avoidance.


I'm being a bit melodramatic out of general disgust. It's not that bad, and it's still useful for certain applications. I'm far more likely to run the Indomitable Pride and a 391 Scales of Life this tier -- even though it makes me feel unclean, especially since I've been harsh on people who went dual-stam since, uh, 2007.

I'm currently running the Pride (which the other night proc'ed 52 times) and the dodge proc 5m trinket (with windwalk and this thing up I'm at 24% dodge).

Given all the "this shit will kill you unless you have a major CD running, in which case it will just kill you mostly dead" in the back half of DS, the Pride almost seems required. The shield leeway on Ultra and Tentacle Tanking@MoDerpwing is amazing.

I've called dibs on the next Firestone we see on the staff farming run because I never upgraded a Scale because I was dubious about it -- we had a discussion about it -- but I did save one in the guild bank :D.

I have (or at least used to have) more gold than I know what to do with, so I bought a bunch of gems when they were sub-2 or -1k. I overwrote five of them when I went dual-stam trinkets. ><

It's a shame you can't buy gems for VP.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Cli » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:58 pm

You don't have a Heroic Spindle? That proc dodge trinket is horrible, you would be much better off using spindle and gemming back more stam heavy to bring the mastery down. 391 scales and pride sure ok thats debatable but your current trinket setup is very lackluster imo.

OT, I'm going relic > cape > ?
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:51 pm

I have a heroic spindle and I'm sad that it's not going to be part of my usual loadout, because I love that trinket.

I did mention that I am likely going to roll Pride/Scales long term. I want the clicky heal to use after the "hey I'm going to almost kill you now" abilities. I'll probably just start using the Scales now instead of waiting for a Stone. Not sure why I felt constrained by that.

I actually like the flexibility of having full CTC completely independent of trinkets. On farm content I can swap in a hit trinket, or any other comedy trinkets without worrying about being hittable. On special-purpose sets (e.g., 2pc T12 Ret and the like for specific boss fights), I can swap in the spindle and still be capped.

The alt builds are probably less useful this tier than last (e.g., useful/fun for Alys and Rhyo), but it's hard to make that call after a single week in DS pre-heroics.

I may go back to the Spindle in a couple weeks. IMO the Pride is darn near compulsory, but Pride/Spindle leaves no clicky effects, which I also prefer (I used to have the rep trinket as my second trinket).

I went dual-stam as an (expensive) proof of concept, but like I mentioned, I find the flexibility useful.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Phonic » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:39 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I thought the Crystallized Firestones were brilliant. What the hell happened?


It was a great idea in theory... but the drop rates were wayyyy too low. Out of all the months we cleared FL, we saw a total of 6. Tanks took them for Scales and Ring and Firebound Gorget. The other couple went to upgrade some BOE weapons.

All in all, I think they figured that we don't need a heroic version especially since MOP is getting rid of that slot entirely, which I think is about time.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:47 pm

Yes, but the stones would give an upgrade avenue to VP purchased items without cluttering the loot table. There is no heroic level cloak, nor neck, nor relic.

I am all for smaller loot tables; I thought the Stones were a brilliant compromise.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Senet » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:27 pm

I think I'm going relic and cloak.

I have about 3.21% of ctc I can shuffle around and I'm not in much heroic gear from Firelands so for me it's going to be more important to go for those early BiS to stack up my health and stats a bit more while not sacrificing much. Also going towards the exp and hit now to help out dps slowly not all at once until I get a few more pieces.

I'm debating now I have my 4 piece still from tier12 it's not a huge gain anymore really I'm in the when do I trade it off time. We had shoulders drop from Morchok last night and I passed them up to my warrior offtank since he needed them more but now that I know I have so much spare mastery to play with and should I have just grabbed them up and broke my 4 piece.

I think in general I'm just waiting to switch up piece for piece as I can with a determined list of items that's going to better fit my gains over the course of progression.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Valour » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:39 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Yes, but the stones would give an upgrade avenue to VP purchased items without cluttering the loot table. There is no heroic level cloak, nor neck, nor relic.

I am all for smaller loot tables; I thought the Stones were a brilliant compromise.



Completely agree!

While the droprate was indeed too low in FL, the concept was logical and awesome. It's always an uncomfortable decision process when you need to weight a properly-itemized lower ilvl piece with a poorly-itemized higher ilvl piece, and such a decision always leaves me wondering "Hmmm... did I make the right call?" lol.

Some of the items this tier are ridiculous, like cloak/neck having no viable alternatives from raiding? And yet at the same time, no possible way to upgrade them to heroic ilvl...

I suppose I'm coming at this with a "I raid heroics so I deserve to fill every slot with ilvl 410!" mentality, which may be wrong of me. But hey, give us at least 2 options to every slot, don't just stick us with a 397 VP item and call it a day! lol :)

---

Regarding the order, I'm not sure yet but I think cloak/relic are very solid first choices. You can't argue with getting the pieces that have no alternatives, since you know you'll be using them for the rest of the expansion.
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:52 pm

My tinfoil hat theory is that the filler boss (the Halion of this expansion) will fill in the Cloak and Neck holes. :)
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Re: 4.3 - Spending Valor Points

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:42 am

Supposedly there won't be a filler boss. Not that Blizz ever goes back on their claims or anything... :roll:
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