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Hour of twilight Heroics.

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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Flex » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:14 pm

Nikachelle wrote:It is the priest in my signature, and the bulk of those 378 items were obtained through the new dungeon. She *is* the 353-359 gear that Sab was referring to. She's not "stomping all over" the new dungeons in her Firelands epics.


The bulk being the two items from quests and the chest being the only things obtained post patch, which is exactly half of your 378s?

This is my feeling of what crummy geared means: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... x/advanced (totally fair comparison because I totally play her and junk and she isn't just a transmute bitch)
Last edited by Flex on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:14 pm

mavfin wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:It is the priest in my signature, and the bulk of those 378 items were obtained through the new dungeon. She *is* the 353-359 gear that Sab was referring to. She's not "stomping all over" the new dungeons in her Firelands epics.


I see *two* pieces of the new dungeon gear.

Your point being? Her equipped ilevel is 365. Her ilevel before I entered those dungeons was 360. I'd forgotten about her bracers. Heavens. It seems I had 3 pieces of 378 gear before entering the new dungeon. Pardon me.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:51 pm

RedAces wrote:We just facerolled everything in there, but we heavily overgeared them (391 gear). On the ptr with the gear-debuff (all gear reduced to 353 ilvl) they were as challenging as the zuls.


^- this is definitely the point to pay attention to here
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Ezharon » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:55 pm

The new heroics are the last tier heroics of the expansion. They went live 1 full year after the expansion launched. Even if you were not playing since the last full year you can now have at least an average 365+ ilvl with JP.

So what's the point of the new heroics being too easy for PUG groups at that ilvl ? Part of the game is having some challenge. The only challenge left seems that you need at least a tank and a healer that know how to move from crap (yellow, purple or green whatever) on the floor and that's all...

Don't misunterstand me. I'm not raiding anymore since months, and I'm not part of a HM raiding guild, but I'm still playing the game because I'm still enjoying some of its aspects.

The new heroics aren't just challenging enough IMO.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:43 pm

Ezharon wrote:The new heroics aren't just challenging enough IMO.


I completely agree. The current difficulty would have been fine for the "normal mode" 5s, but they severely miss the mark (and opportunity) that the heroic tag could have engendered.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby rodos » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:50 pm

mavfin wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:It seems to me the only thing that raiders are the "target audience for" anymore is heroic raids. Seriously, is that all we get? Everything else is the target audience for "another group", but don't worry, we get heroic raids.


I would suspect that if you knew the real numbers (yes, I'm only guessing) the effort put into heroic raiding is more of the work than the proportion of the playerbase that heroic-level raiders are, so I'm surprised you still get to keep that as it is.

Fact is, if you estimate heroic-level raiders as 10% of the playerbase (I think that's a generous estimate), then 90% of the game may have a target demographic that isn't you. Heroic-level raids could be seen as 10-15% of what's available, so that's actually not bad.

I know, you don't have to like it, but, the game is a *business*, and they're not going to set difficulty to make 10% of the playerbase happier, and piss off the other 90%. They upped difficulty in Cata for heroic 5-mans and normal difficulty raids, and figured out they made a mistake when casuals left in great numbers. 4.3 is trying a new baseline for 5-man heroic and normal raid difficulty, and I think it's going to make more people happy than not. Maybe not people that post here, but overall.

It's true that the proportion of development effort doesn't really line up with the population, but I think heroic raiders (I'm not one) are a bit like the early-adopter and elite users that computer and gadget companies court. Nvidia release top-of-the-line graphics cards with crazy prices not because these things are particularly profitable in themselves (the total market is tiny compared to churning out tens of thousands of entry-level cards for Dells), but because it creates awe and aspiration in the rest of us peons. It makes them look like a great brand making cool things that all the cool kids have, so I go out and buy a cheaper GeForce rather than an S3 or whatever and nvidia win and S3 disappear into obscurity.

When my guild was farming Kara for months in BC, it was frustrating that we couldn't break through into 25-man raids, but I kept playing because it was always a possibility. If Kara was all there was, I would probably have quit, despite my game play being the same in practical terms.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Steve » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:33 pm

rodos wrote:Nvidia release top-of-the-line graphics cards with crazy prices not because these things are particularly profitable in themselves (the total market is tiny compared to churning out tens of thousands of entry-level cards for Dells), but because it creates awe and aspiration in the rest of us peons. It makes them look like a great brand making cool things that all the cool kids have, so I go out and buy a cheaper GeForce rather than an S3 or whatever and nvidia win and S3 disappear into obscurity.

When my guild was farming Kara for months in BC, it was frustrating that we couldn't break through into 25-man raids, but I kept playing because it was always a possibility. If Kara was all there was, I would probably have quit, despite my game play being the same in practical terms.


The only video cards that used to be produced at all were the top of the line cards. Way back in the day you could get a top of the line card for $50, primarily because people who didn't need the beefy cards were buying them and essentially being forced to subsidize the price for the enthusiasts. It's only now that there are more options that the upper end cards have become insanely expensive.

Of course much of that is also the fact that the gap in usage requirements have also increased dramatically. (Interestingly, there's an analogy with WoW here as well.)

The analogy is there, but oddly I interpret it in the exact opposite way you have.

Here's what the analogy would be from my perspective. They make more (or arguably, any) heroic raid/challenging dungeon content but you need a higher subscription tier to access it that costs more per month to accurately reflect the fact that the cost of the assets are spread across fewer subscriptions.

I prefer the way they've handled it, of course. They are trying to reuse as many assets as they can for content used by as many players as is possible. From that perspective, LFR is basically saving heroic raids. I can't for the life of me understand why all heroic raiders don't see it that way.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby yappo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:24 am

The new heroics are indeed faceroll, but not for the reasons you have mentioned (ok, possibly overgearing).

I'm not in a raiding guild. As a matter of fact I'm the only lvl 85 in our guild who logs on more than twice a week. Hence I have a fairly solid experience from pugging. While the last four months of troll-pugs haven't really been the statistical nightmare forum-posts would indicate, puggers really don't perform anywhere close to capacity.

I've collected my 1k VP, plus a few extra runs this far on the new heroics. It's glaringly obvious I'm tanking for statistical casual raiding puggers, not statistical puggers. Trash are CC:d on the fly, run-away mobs peeled from the healer and either locked down and killed, CC:d or sent in my direction. Abilities are interrupted, people move from goo on the ground, temporary buffs applied at appropriate times, removable debuffs are immediately removed and I'm placed solidly last on recount dps-lists. In fact overall p-dps on average increased by 20k since last week, which is a bit rich to explain by gear-upgrades. Oh, and I've seen a grand total of five to eight players not gemmed and enchanted all over thus far.

Just wait another couple of weeks until the wiping departement from the trolls start pugging the new content, and you'll have your exploding randoms back again.

I guess LFR is the same, but I have just (as earlier today) gotten myself to 372 without resorting to crap in my bags, so I haven't tried it our yet.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Worldie » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:39 am

yappo you almost read my mind :)

So far I've capped VP on 4 chars and done a big share of runs anyway on many chars to gear em up. Most boss mechanics are actually dealt with, but in fair honesty, most bosses just require that 1 or 2 people know what they are doing, and can carry the other 3. Not so different from troll heroics really.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby econ21 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:18 am

Worldie wrote:Most boss mechanics are actually dealt with, but in fair honesty, most bosses just require that 1 or 2 people know what they are doing, and can carry the other 3. Not so different from troll heroics really.


Not so different from the trolls now, when we massively overgear them and everyone knows tactics. I skipped the trolls for the whole of the 4.1 patch (in a guild that had stopped raiding, there were no rewards for me in that patch, so I zoned out of WoW). But even when I came back up until quite recently, the Zuls were sufficiently hard to deter weaker players. And having wiped 17 times on Jindo in one memorable PUG, I don't think you can carry 3 in that fight (one death is normally a wipe).

This is week 1 of the patch: the new heroics represent a marked lowering of the difficulty of heroics. Compare them with the ICC heroics which came at the same stage of the last expansion.

It's a shame because I think the BC heroics, ICC heroics and Zuls were pitched just right for "heroics": having to use CC, get threat on incoming adds, providing gear checks for all roles etc. I could happily play them as an endgame rather than raid (and aside from Kara, largely had to do that in BC). In some ways, I find them more compelling than raiding with its abstract dances (chasing purple balls in ICC provided a low in terms of absurdity for me).

These TH heroics are much closer to Azjol-Nerub than Magisters Terrace.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Hokahey » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:52 am

Actually, I think the difficulty is overall just fine. I'm much happier with these than the troll heroics. They're fun, and I'll be honest and say that (I ran these this week probably in the range of ~40 times total combined among all characters) I've had a group wipe at some point on every boss except Jaina (in my opinion, a legitimate candidate for being "too easy"), and Sylvanas (only had her once).

There were only 2 difficult trash parts of the ICC heroics, and 1 somewhat challenging boss, and almost all of that difficulty was at the feet of the tank and healer. These heroics are actually much more difficult overall and the boss fights actually lean a lot more on DPS doing what they're supposed to than. One (sort of) difficult boss and an obnoxious trash wave encounter does not translate to the whole things being massively difficult.

I admit I'll be sick to death of these in a month, but I was sick of the Zuls in about a week. I actually swore off PvE for a couple of months. I got tired of zoning in to heroics to watch the tank quit without even doing a trash pull, then sitting in queue waiting for a replacement for 15 or more minutes. Worse yet, having a group struggle through to face being stuck in an endless wipefest at the last boss for 3 hours. This was true of the original heroics in Cataclysm, as well.

I'm not "super awesome" at WoW, but I'm fairly good. I almost always performed my role well in the Zuls, but having 1 idiot could sometimes ruin it if the person was stupid and bad enough. While you may say the "LFG bads" shouldn't be rewarded, but I say the priority is in not punishing the decent players who put forth an effort by making the fights so tightly tuned that 1 or 2 mistakes by one idiot may automatically equal a wipe for everyone. In exchange for not having my gameplay hampered too terribly by incompetence on someone else's part, I'll accept "bads" getting access to the same loot as me. These aren't raids. They're 5 mans. If it were raids, I'd feel differently.

I know in the past I've always argued for tougher 5 mans, but honestly...fuck it. I like the new ones. A lot.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:49 am

Judging from last night's experience, the difficulty of Peroth'arn (first boss in the Well of Eternity) depends entirely on the healer's ability/inability to hide from the eyes (to avoid death).


Actually there is a simple solution for this. In my runs on my dps tunes I observed that whoever got seen first (there is always someone), they almost always get 2-shot before the healer or tank can get over there.

When I tanked it, I popped GanK and stood next to the boss to eat the first strike. It went fine.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:57 am

As far as the new heroics and LFR, they ARE stupid easy.

On patch day, my huntard was ilvl ~ 353, basically full 346 blues, plus 359 alchemy trinket and a 353 weapon (I don't believe I have done any T11 or T12 raids on her). Using JP I quickly got upto 360 or so and into the new heroics. My rotation on the hunter is decent but I rarely actually play her. It was still faceroll.

The heroics have not been kind drop-wise, I still needed 1 piece to get to 372 equipped. So I bought a 377 helm from AH and used it as bag-gear to do LFR. I was reasonably competitive (~10th ds usually) @ 370 ilvl vs 372 required. I did get both the off-tier gloves and later the tier-gloves (sadly could not trade the non-tier piece away) and will use them once I get a second LFR tier piece.

When I go on my tank, I routinely out dps 3-5 'dps' ..... as a tank. And yet LFR groups still 1-shot most things. OK, I am like ~4% hit and 27 expertise, but still for me to beat that many dps is sad.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby Belloc » Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:18 am

Hrobertgar wrote:
Judging from last night's experience, the difficulty of Peroth'arn (first boss in the Well of Eternity) depends entirely on the healer's ability/inability to hide from the eyes (to avoid death).


Actually there is a simple solution for this. In my runs on my dps tunes I observed that whoever got seen first (there is always someone), they almost always get 2-shot before the healer or tank can get over there.

When I tanked it, I popped GanK and stood next to the boss to eat the first strike. It went fine.
I'll second this. If the group doesn't seem to understand the eye phase, just get over there and be the first one seen. Alternatively, Hand of Protection works well on whoever triggered the eyes.
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Re: Hour of twilight Heroics.

Postby econ21 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:02 am

As I think someone told me on this forum, as a palatank you can also use the bubble and cancel bubble macro to bypass the stun when discovered.
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