Wrong instance or not yet ready for heroics?

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Wrong instance or not yet ready for heroics?

Postby Ardanien » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:44 am

Just tried my first heroic with a guild group the other night and it was a nightmare.

Trying to figure out if its due to the instance itself, or our collective gear/experience with heroics.

Ended up attempting heroic crypts (don't ask me why, daily I think?) with a guild group consisting of:

arms warrior
shadow priest
ret pally
holy pally

Pretty standard group makeup based on what we have available as regular lev 70 players. Even completely forgetting about the mobs ability to summon the non elite adds, and having no form of CC other than shackle on said adds, I felt we did rather well.

Cleared in to the first boss before calling it quits due to time constraints and people needing to leave. Took a few pulls to figure out the best way to handle the mobs, but ended up burning both summoned adds first, then caster then melee of the elites. Went fine until the 3 pulls in the last room before the bridge and the one patrol on the bridge. Those were an absolute nightmare. Healer wasn't able to keep me up beyond the initial pull even with one UD shackled and everyone burning them first.

Eventually made it to the boss and again had issues staying alive. Wasn't prepared for the bleed initially, then figured out to bubble/BoP to remove it with both melee dps blowing stoneform when it hit 5 counters. Third try would have had him had the healer not been slow getting out of the focused fire ae.

We've been farming norm SV and various other instances, just working SH into the mix and will likely end up doing SH/SV back to back much mroe often as easy as they are.

Here's my armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Ardanien

And from what I recall, the pally was running with ~775 healing gear.

Are we undergeared for heroics in general, and if so, is it more due to me or the healer? Or was this just a horrible choice of an instance to attempt given our inexperience and lack of CC and we'd be fine running something else?

Thing I love is that even though we wiped many times, everyone was having fun with the challenge and really stuck it out. Can't wait to start taking these on regularly.
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Postby Exodius » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:23 am

Hmmm...

Your stats as a tank at a quick glance seem fine enough for the easier heroics. These include Slave Pens, Underbog, Hellfire Ramparts and Mechanar. They are all not exactly cake walks starting out and each have their own challenges, but most paladin tanks say they are the easiest to do.

Crypts though is just a pain. The undead summoned things include priests that will keep up an elite forever unless they are killed, and mages and hunters that may not be in consercrate range and hence kill the healer. The hunters have vipers sting, the mana draining debuff. That must be removed immediately on anyone who gets it or else they will be out of mana within around 5 seconds. :(

The first boss is truly terrible too. His anti-casting aura makes healing truly painful, especially if you have melee dps who can be targeted by the fire AoE, causing the tank to move and likely put them either out of range of the healer or else make the stacking buff too high for them to do anything. :(

Most people hate the crypts. I find PUGs tend to not have the stomach for it as there are many, many things that happen in that instance that cause stupid wipes that you have no control over... neutral adds getting stuck in a consercrate, not having aggro on adds and killing a healer, someone getting MC'd and causing a wipe, the first boss slowing the healer to uselessness or someone dying from a fire AoE, the bridge to the first boss and the stupid eyes that kill you so you are forced to run back and waste 15 minutes of the groups time... yeah, most people hate it. All this stuff is not hard, it's just a lot of cheap crap deaths, no matter how good you are. :cry:

Finally, 775 sounds way, way low for a healer in a heroic. I would normally want a healer with at least +1000 healing. It's not hard to get that high a number without getting heroic or Kara drops, you just need to work hard for it, like a tank does with their stats.

More +healing means that heals will do more (surprising, really :roll: ) so they can heal more when someone needs it and have to heal less and save mana because their heals are more effective. :D

So I recommend trying a less painful heroic and getting your healer to get more +healing. :wink:
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Re: Wrong instance or not yet ready for heroics?

Postby Dianora » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:30 am

Crypt is not the best instance to start heroic. I still avoid the place on general principle for the amount of summoned caster they pull. Try Slave Pens, Underbog, or Mechanar. The Holy Paladin's heal is a bit on the low end for heroic. I remember going into my first heroic healing at 1100 and feeling inadequate.
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Postby Zeels » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:15 am

Tbh, for harder heroics you need a healer with 1500-1600+ minimum (that is when pugging)

At least that's my rule of thumb. Ofc you can do some with even a 1k healer if he is skilled enough, I'm not all that for gambling when pugging, so I usually tend to only do the harder once with ace healers.
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Postby Questioner » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:46 am

Zeels wrote:Tbh, for harder heroics you need a healer with 1500-1600+ minimum (that is when pugging).


I heal T5 content with 1400 +healing, so I would say that's a bit high :D
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Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:54 am

I Learned regular crypts the hard way (How the fuck do I pull that priest without pulling the dozen adds half a yard away from her?), and after a "shit, I hate this place", I made it work.

Heroic...ugh, I don't want to try it before I get at least all my rep rewards. tried Botanica or Underbog already? They're fairly easy, and I've done them a couple times already(even the satyr boss everyone hates went down smoothly)
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Postby Zeels » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:20 am

Questioner wrote:
Zeels wrote:Tbh, for harder heroics you need a healer with 1500-1600+ minimum (that is when pugging).


I heal T5 content with 1400 +healing, so I would say that's a bit high :D


Try pugging one of the harder heroics with numbskulls + 1200 healing class of your choice (also numbskull), well I won't do it. Besides on my server there are several +1700-2.1k healers doing heroics, with whom I've run before.

All I'm saying is and esp if you aren't that well geared for heroics, take a 1600+ healer with you. Even if he dosen't have the skills at least he will have the gear to keep you up.

Would also like to add that I have around 1300+ healing on my priest who haven't done any 10 mans and not any heroics, so go figure how hard it is to reach those levels.
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Postby Exodius » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:17 am

Zeels wrote:All I'm saying is and esp if you aren't that well geared for heroics, take a 1600+ healer with you. Even if he dosen't have the skills at least he will have the gear to keep you up.

Would also like to add that I have around 1300+ healing on my priest who haven't done any 10 mans and not any heroics, so go figure how hard it is to reach those levels.


Highest a priest would get without raids or heroics is maybe 1200, 1300. It can go higher with:

PvP and arena items.
Enchants.
Tailoring - Primal Mooncloth and Whitemend sets (you can buy Whitemend, you don't have to make it yourself - you don't even have to be a tailor to equip it).
Heroic badge rewards.
Raiding items.

Healers have to start somewhere in regards to heroics, just like tanks do. I think +1000 healing is a very good starting point. If they know what they are doing, it should be good enough for the easy ones. That's about when my priest started healing heroics and he does fine. :P

If you are a good solid tank, there is nothing wrong with running with an up and coming healer that knows what they are doing.

That being said, you can have a very high healing level - from tailoring and welfare pvp epics - and still not be able to heal a heroic for the life of you.

All this has been covered before though, and will likely be covered again. It's just like talking about at what point can a paladin tank start tanking a heroic, except from the healers point of view. :P
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:19 am

Wrong istance imo, crypts is definitively one of the most boring and annoying ones, since if u are unlucky with spawns u can get some very VERY bad combos.

1st boss is as well a royal pain unless you have a dr00d healer.
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Postby Ardanien » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:52 am

Appreciate the input guys. As far as finding a different healer, this was a guild run as most my instance runs are, so limited choices on healers and I dont believe any of them are at the 1000 healing mark just yet.

Sadly, we have lots of dps classes, but only 1 dedicated healer, and a few alts that heal as well. All are in the 700-800 healing range, so getting there but not quite.

The one benefit is we often have a shadow priest running with us to provide a little healing and act as a mana battery.

For now, I need to get off my ass and farm mats to skill up engineering as I finally landed a nether and goggles are calling to me.
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Postby Wakeman » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:25 pm

Healers with only 700-800 healing are simply not ready for heroics. In fact, I would say that they are too lazy as there are so many healing gears from those easy outdoor quests and AH to push your healing over 1000. Right now, I have 13xx healing on my healing gear, even though I am tanking most of the time.
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Postby Zeels » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 pm

Wakeman wrote:Healers with only 700-800 healing are simply not ready for heroics. In fact, I would say that they are too lazy as there are so many healing gears from those easy outdoor quests and AH to push your healing over 1000. Right now, I have 13xx healing on my healing gear, even though I am tanking most of the time.


What he said
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Postby Ardanien » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:22 pm

Tried heroic UB last night, and barring a little difficulty with Ghaz and the stalker, smoked the rest of the place.

I agree about the healing bit, but apparently I was off for one of our priests, said she was over 1100 with buffs last night.

Ghaz was just rough with the stacking debuff, ended up bubbling to remove the stack and even still only won due to the rogue getting lucky with evasion and some sick dps to finish him off after the rest of the group wiped.

Stalker kept screwing with us by sending myself or the shadow priest out of the room via levitate. Eventually just ignored the adds and flat out burned it down.

First completed heroic for the guild, and netted me the last nether I needed for my boots of he protector.

Can't wait to run more of these.
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Postby Wakeman » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:20 am

Ardanien wrote:Stalker kept screwing with us by sending myself or the shadow priest out of the room via levitate. .



You can bubble it out or cleanse: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=4373
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Postby Uthadanin » Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:52 am

honestly +800 heal is nothing, I hit it at lvl 66 as a holy pally.

buffs to get there were arcane brilliance, draneai flask, adepts. Had +778 heal unbuffed at that point.
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