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Active mitigation - prot warrior version

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Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby econ21 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:01 pm

When Blizzard decided managing threat was not fun and wanted to replace it with active mitigation, it was not very clear what they meant. However, the changes suggested for protection warriors give some insights. It seems that the warrior's defensive cooldowns - shield block and shield wall - are being taken off a CD, but instead eat up a very large amount of rage. The warrior's standard offensive moves - shield slam, devastate and revenge - now generate rage rather than consume it. It sounds quite interesting - you still want to hit mobs, but not so much for threat, but rather to power up your big defensive moves.

MMO Champion wrote:•Shield Slam now generates 10 rage, instead of consuming it.
•Shield Block is now exclusive to Protection and has no cooldown, down from 1 minute, but costs 80 rage, up from 0. It also now increases your chance to block by 25% for the next incoming melee attack instead of for the next 10 seconds.
•Revenge is now exclusive to Protection and costs no rage but has a 10 sec cooldown, up from 5 sec.
•Last Stand now has no cooldown, down from 3 minutes, but costs 80 rage, up from 0.
•Devastate now costs no rage, down from 15, but has a 3 sec cooldown, up from 0.


http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

I am not clear what the paladin equivalent will be. MMO champion reveals part of it is taking eternal glory off CD, so we can use Holy Power for heals more often again. If we are to get analogous changes to warriors, maybe our holy shield, divine protection or other CDs become holy power finishers, while a few more of our attacks become holy power generators?
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Shield of the Righteous increases your block % by 10%, costs Holy Power

It sounds to me like our model will be very similar to what we have now, except now ShotR isn't a pure damage cooldown. We now will choose our HoPo finishers from ShotR for block %, Word of Glory for heals and Holy Shield for Absorbs. So there will no longer be a choice between using HoPo for damage or survivability.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby degre » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:58 pm

Sounds like this is how they intend to deal with re-evaluating threat stats, very interesting.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby PsiVen » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:02 pm

Last Stand with no cooldown makes no sense whatsoever, and Shield Block costing 80 rage for 1 hit is just shit. That would create a rotation more rigid than 969 with Shield Block being much less powerful than Holy Shield was. The current changes suggest that the new paladin rotation would be CS-Judge-CS-Finisher-Repeat, with the rotation during AW being Judge-Judge-Judge-ShoR-Repeat (or just "Spam ShoR" depending on talents). I'm not buying into that.

I don't think these ideas are fully formed enough to talk about those details, honestly. We already know they plan to change our Mastery and haven't done it yet.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:06 pm

PsiVen wrote:The current changes suggest that the new paladin rotation would be CS-Judge-CS-Finisher-Repeat, with the rotation during AW being Judge-Judge-Judge-ShoR-Repeat (or just "Spam ShoR" depending on talents).


That isn't a repeatable rotation, because CS is a 4.5-second cooldown in 5.0. It's more likely to be:

J-CS-X-X-CS-Finisher-repeat

That looks really funny, at first: why wouldn't we be prioritizing CS>J? Well, we actually are, but cooldown clashes end up giving you that repeatable cycle:

CS-J-X-CS-Finisher-J-CS-X-X-CS-Finisher-J-CS-X-X-CS-Finisher-J-CS-X-X-CS-Finisher-J-

That said, this is an incomplete model because it ignores Grand Crusader procs, which will significantly change things. So in all likelihood there won't be a static rotation, just as there isn't now. The general rule will probably be

(Finisher)>CS>J>(fillers),

which will work out to CS-X-X sequences most of the time.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:42 am

This is actually the first time I've really been tempted to try Warrior tanking. I think I'd like that playstyle more than having to be aware of how much Rage I have for every attack.


Not sure about Last Stand, to be honest. Presumably they wanted one for physical and one for other damage, don't know if Last Stand fits. Shield Block could work if they can block cap with it, but I'm not sure about the 1 charge part, especially when the Druid version is 60% damage reduction for 3 seconds (though Druids have to balance using Rage on SD versus using it on attacks).
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Jaitee » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:42 pm

bears savage defence becomes alot like last stand a 60% damage reduction that costs rage though the bear version is only 3 seconds
however the bear version is a quarter of the cost and a quarter of the duration
and a 3 second savage defence would mean bears press it every second keypress which would be the worst rotation ever (atleast out every second keypress crusader strike does damage)

i think last stand will probably turn into a lower % and they will tune it so that when the dragon is punching you in the face youll use shield block when the dragon is about to breath fire youll use last stand
same with us just replace shield block with SotR and last stand with sacred shield

wow i just typed all that out then remembered last stand is the 40% health increase (gotta use my warrior more)
anyway if they turn last stand into a %of damage reduction then what i said will become meaningful!
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby fafhrd » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:13 pm

Not that I've tanked anything significant, but the direction of the warrior changes look promising. As long as the numbers are picked so it's not a mindless repeated rotation and there's room for decisions at every GCD or two, it looks like fun.

Hopefully there's some better indicator of the bosses swing timer, so you can play on a per-swing basis.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:13 am

These are just initial concepts. I can guarantee you that Savage Defense giving 60% damage reduction base, modified by Mastery to give even more damage reduction, is not going to ever happen. THe Warrior one has basis to break in all kinds of ways (an 80 Rage cost on a class with 100 Rage doesn't work).

And I could have used Never but I used Not Ever just to emphasize how Never.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby degre » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:19 am

Darielle wrote:These are just initial concepts. I can guarantee you that Savage Defense giving 60% damage reduction base, modified by Mastery to give even more damage reduction, is not going to ever happen. THe Warrior one has basis to break in all kinds of ways (an 80 Rage cost on a class with 100 Rage doesn't work).

And I could have used Never but I used Not Ever just to emphasize how Never.

It doesnt work if you need the rage also for your normal skill, but if I have understood the idea is for normal skills to not cost rage and be instead rage producers. The warrior would become pretty much the way the paladin is now, get 3 holy powers, use skill.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:07 am

I would believe that for rage users, they intend to have a system like degre says, as in offensive skills producing rage and defensive skills using it. Of course not costing 80 rage and likely not having no cd, I assume those are placeholder values.

DK system should remain very similar to how it is today, I would suppose defensive skills will be moved onto using runic power and offensive skills runes.

For Paladins, looks like our system is going to be a combo-point system, using offensive skills as builder and defensive skills as finished. Most likely we'll have a "go-to" skill, probably ShoR, which'll do damage and some secondary effect, and Holy Shield / Word of glory being fully defensive finishers.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:19 am

Right now the only Bear abilities on Rage other than SD are Maul (free damage with excess Rage) and Lacerate (lol).
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Worldie » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:50 am

Does make sense to allow to pick between defensive and offensive "finishers" for all classes, too. We'd be able to push our DPS in situations where mitigation is not necessary (outgeared stuff) or secondary to damage (challenging hard-enrage boss), and worry about survivability in the rest..
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:46 am

This almost sounds like we will be hitting Holy Shield on CD to maintain defences again, at least on progression content.
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Re: Active mitigation - prot warrior version

Postby Darielle » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:26 am

Hrobertgar wrote:This almost sounds like we will be hitting Holy Shield on CD to maintain defences again, at least on progression content.


Holy Shield is a 3-HP talent with no cooldown that absorbs damage instead of healing you.

So yeah, in a world where you're designed to use Holy Power on defensive moves when you get 3, you will be "hitting it on cooldown".
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