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Zell has left the building.

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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Dion » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:08 am

Barathorn wrote:You can't teach a generation of FPS players who have grown up getting what they want and when they want it patience.


So Bara, are you what generation of gamers are you referring? 70's or 80's? Moster Maze,Spasim and Maze War. Of course then there's Wolfenstein 3D and Doom but I don't know do you mean so young generation of gamers as early 90's. :D

There is some things I miss in old wow, but some things I definately don't miss. One thing that I would LOVE to see is some kind of tool telling why you wiped on LFD/R boss. Message like: DPS 1 stood in fire, DPS 2 ate boss cleave and healer got killed by add etc. As a healer it's really stupid to be blamed for wipe when it's not really your fault as adds run a round, dps stand in fire etc.

Also, people complaing how easy this game is, try to raid with DBM or some kinda boss mods. It's not a real challenge to duck ability when you know it's going to land exatly in 10.23 seconds.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:16 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Part of the problem is that none of this is necessary for people who want to improve, and none of this will help people who can't be arsed to improve.

Yes, but this will more readily identify those that can't be arsed to improve so I can choose not to group with them.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Barathorn » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:44 am

Dion wrote:
Barathorn wrote:You can't teach a generation of FPS players who have grown up getting what they want and when they want it patience.


So Bara, are you what generation of gamers are you referring? 70's or 80's? Moster Maze,Spasim and Maze War. Of course then there's Wolfenstein 3D and Doom but I don't know do you mean so young generation of gamers as early 90's. :D


I often find the older FPS players to be more offensive than the younger ones in all honesty as a generalisation.

I suppose in a time scale early 90's onwards although its impossible to really narrow it down. MMORPG's basically stopped being for roleplayers only a long time ago and there is no war as bloody or graphic as a nerd war.

Bah GET ORF MY LAWN bloody kids.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:46 am

Deathwing is not as compelling a villain as the Lich King. Granted, the comparison is a little unfair, but they did so well with Arthas, I thought they'd manage bette than what they did with Deathwing. His motivation feels "cheap". "Going insane" is only a good motive, in my opinion, when the character still follows a comprehensible, if flawed, logic.

Also, Arthas taunted us. He picked on us. He was there, waiting for us, testing us. What he was doing made sense, and tied the entire questing experience in Northrend together. Deathwing feels almost as distant as Illidan. Largely irrelevant. In some ways worse, because while you could comprehend a reason why Illidan would rely on lackeys and supporters to do things, to fight his battles, it doesn't make sense for a villain like Deathwing. While I'm sure having allies doesn't hurt his objectives, they also don't seem to really be doing much to help, either, and it makes the idea of facing Deathwing all that much less interesting.


You're running an argument that didn't exist at the end of Wrath. The feedback that Blizzard received from players was that Arthas' random popping in made him look silly. He was the poster child of "I don't feel like killing you now" and after the first two times, it stopped being "badass" and started being "Arthas can't kill anyone lolz", especially since the majority of times ended up with you beating Arthas in some way.

Deathwing shows up in only a couple of places so that he isn't popping around all over the place, and almost universally when he shows up, things die, and YOU run away.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Teranoid » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:09 am

Darielle wrote:
Deathwing is not as compelling a villain as the Lich King. Granted, the comparison is a little unfair, but they did so well with Arthas, I thought they'd manage bette than what they did with Deathwing. His motivation feels "cheap". "Going insane" is only a good motive, in my opinion, when the character still follows a comprehensible, if flawed, logic.

Also, Arthas taunted us. He picked on us. He was there, waiting for us, testing us. What he was doing made sense, and tied the entire questing experience in Northrend together. Deathwing feels almost as distant as Illidan. Largely irrelevant. In some ways worse, because while you could comprehend a reason why Illidan would rely on lackeys and supporters to do things, to fight his battles, it doesn't make sense for a villain like Deathwing. While I'm sure having allies doesn't hurt his objectives, they also don't seem to really be doing much to help, either, and it makes the idea of facing Deathwing all that much less interesting.


You're running an argument that didn't exist at the end of Wrath. The feedback that Blizzard received from players was that Arthas' random popping in made him look silly. He was the poster child of "I don't feel like killing you now" and after the first two times, it stopped being "badass" and started being "Arthas can't kill anyone lolz", especially since the majority of times ended up with you beating Arthas in some way.

Deathwing shows up in only a couple of places so that he isn't popping around all over the place, and almost universally when he shows up, things die, and YOU run away.


That generally is supposed to happen when you're an aspect that ripped apart an entire world as opposed to some whiny kid who was driven insane by a sword who has a legion of undead at his control.

I do however agree that Arthas showed up almost too frequently in the questlines and yeah.. pretty much every time he was getting his ass kicked and running away. By the time you got to Zul'drak and he claims to "spare your pathetic life" you're laughing at him because you've already chased him off two or three times and by the time you actually got to Icecrown it became almost comical.

Deathwing destroyed Azeroth. He almost killed Alexstrasza. He does so much WITHOUT having to be in your face every 60 quests to go "hi remember me I'm the bad guy on the box". It's just a shame that for as looming as a threat he is the final encounter looks to be one of the disinteresting fights I have ever seen.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:32 am

Somehow I don´t recall driving him off before Icecrown when you kill his heart. And the last of the ICC ones.

Fjord he kills you in the spirit realm, Utgarde he elevates a Val´kyr, Zul´Drak ok, he could just kill you but the rest escapes me for the moment. Not that I doubt it, just can´t remember.

Deathwing shows up less, the only event I recall where you meet him is in Twilight Highlands, where he gets up fast and Alexstrasza is close to dead.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:43 am

Arthas had a general theme of either killing you offhand (spirit realm in Howling Fjord; if you flew close to him in the early Scourgeholme quests), or leaving you to his minions. There was the ending of the Zul'drak chain where he decided to let you live after you killed Drakuru, for no particular reason.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:57 am

at least naxx made sense with them being direct minions of LK.

going to bwd felt more like going there just because we could and nothing else
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby halabar » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:52 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Arthas had a general theme of either killing you offhand (spirit realm in Howling Fjord; if you flew close to him in the early Scourgeholme quests), or leaving you to his minions. There was the ending of the Zul'drak chain where he decided to let you live after you killed Drakuru, for no particular reason.


This and the way Deathwing is flying around is why I find it refreshing that we at least don't know yet who the end bosses are in Pandaclysm. We get to explore a bit, discover things, and wonder how they tie together. Perhaps we are the real enemy.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Dantriges » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:18 pm

IIRC it seems his plan was more or less a bit metagamey. Either his minions kill you or you show upat the throne, get killed by him and raised as his new minions, replacing the guys you dispatched. Something like whoever comes out on top will be his new lieutenants.

He didn´t plan for Tirion´s and his father´s interference. Well sounds a bit like the typical Xanatos gambit plan of an evil overlord that blew up in his face.

And if that stuff Uther told us is correct he wasn´t 100% into world domination with some small part of Arthas actually resisting.

In the end this whole stuff sounds a bit like a cop out and pretty lame anyways.

Same for Deathwing and his merry band of looney toons. Twilight cultists are mad, s their plans run on half power. :roll:
Deathwing could just kill Thrall on his island to disrupt the repair of the world pillar, probably resulting in another flood. You could make a case for the other aspects actually hunting him all over the place. He can drive off Alexstrasza but IIRC his zone burning is disrupted by Ysera and Alexstrasza and this seems to be a bit much for him. Or the fight is too uncertain for him to try it. Would explain why he doesn´t try to kill thrall. Powerful caster, two dragon aspects, there are easier pickings.
I would wish he would eat Garrosh and Varian for lunch but well, that´s a fancy dream.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:55 am

IIRC it seems his plan was more or less a bit metagamey. Either his minions kill you or you show upat the throne, get killed by him and raised as his new minions, replacing the guys you dispatched. Something like whoever comes out on top will be his new lieutenants.

He didn´t plan for Tirion´s and his father´s interference. Well sounds a bit like the typical Xanatos gambit plan of an evil overlord that blew up in his face.


Or maybe his plan all along was to get Tirion to don the helm and he used a projection of Uther and his Father and faked his death.

IT'S A TRAP.

Somehow I don´t recall driving him off before Icecrown when you kill his heart. And the last of the ICC ones.

Fjord he kills you in the spirit realm, Utgarde he elevates a Val´kyr, Zul´Drak ok, he could just kill you but the rest escapes me for the moment. Not that I doubt it, just can´t remember.

Deathwing shows up less, the only event I recall where you meet him is in Twilight Highlands, where he gets up fast and Alexstrasza is close to dead.


At the end of Wrathgate, Arthas limps back in going "This isn't over". Everywhere you go, you kill his minions. In Borean Tundra, he shows up and does the comedy villian "Valanar, you kill him or don't come back alive" bit, which is the same attitude in Zul'drak. He teleports Ymiron out when you kill Angerboda. And so on.

Deathwing's appearances are : raising Ragnaros. The dream sequence in Maw of Madness where he dreamkills Aggra, the Earthen Ring etc. Hell, you just have to fly around Stormwind to see Deathwing and what he did.

going to bwd felt more like going there just because we could and nothing else


Killing Deathwing's son who's working on a new Chromatic Dragon prototype that can cast Blast Nova and wipe out your entire raid?

I mean, they could have put Chimaeron in STormwind for a world event to draw attention to the place. That would have been hilarious and FUN at lvl 80.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Sabindeus » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:51 am

Deathwing shows up quite well in the Twilight Highlands quest and just beats the crap out of Alexstrazsa. Given how we know Alexstrazsa is a badass from events in WotLK, having him show up and wreck her easily fairly well establishes Deathwing as a big bad, IMO. Not to mention all the backstory he has.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby mavfin » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:20 am

Sabindeus wrote:Deathwing shows up quite well in the Twilight Highlands quest and just beats the crap out of Alexstrazsa. Given how we know Alexstrazsa is a badass from events in WotLK, having him show up and wreck her easily fairly well establishes Deathwing as a big bad, IMO. Not to mention all the backstory he has.


Yeah, I get confused when people say that 'Deathwing came from nowhere, he has no lore.'

What? War of the Ancients? Dragon Soul? Old God corruption? No lore?

No, just no lore that they've bothered to find out about. Of course, the new 5-mans will fill in some holes in that.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:35 am

You're not supposed to be clue into Villians - they need to slap you in the face to tell you who they are.

Well, actually Deathwing did do that. Crap.
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Re: Zell has left the building.

Postby Zalaria » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:15 am

Part of the problem with Deathwing is that his biggest effect on the world was done overnight in a content patch. There was a video, but it's less connected to the world than the many quests where we saw Arthas.

He did show up a couple times, but in Hyjal he was kinda just sitting there. Twilight was a good one, but I think it was the only one. His random burning of zones was more annoying than anything else.
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