[Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Holy Paladin] Gear List (4.1)

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:26 am

I generally assume that any piece w/o resilience is comparatively worthless for pvp, so I was mainly asking about the PvE viability of the chunk of extra Int on a slot that one might not normally have PvE purples for (e.g., head + shoulders) or ones that have lower itemization losses (shoulders/hands) to resilience.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] Gear List (4.1)

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:17 am

Reading Comprehension: I apparently don't have it. >.<

I think it depends on the difference in ilevels on the pieces that you'd be swapping out. If they are relatively close in ilevels, I'd stick with PvE pieces.

That being said, I don't value mastery very much with my paladin so if it's a decent increase in intellect and I'm shedding mastery, I'm all for it. If it's haste, I generally don't swap it out. As for crit, it's a toss up.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.1)

Postby lythac » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:53 am

Kelaan wrote:How useful is a 2x bonus from the pvp gloves? Does the gain of XXX Int (via base + bonus gains) outweigh the expenditure of budget on resilience rather than spirit/haste/crit/mastery ?


The 2P bonus of 35 Int per item pales to the loss of a rating in a weak slot (gloves + shoulder) of ~159 @ ilvl 359 with the ratings I am using.

Some of the 384 PvP pieces with spirit and 2 piece bonus rank alongside 346-359 PvE pieces.

Some of the 358 PvP crafted gear is interesting for those at the lower end of the scale as they are failsafe, bracers are a decent exmple of this -

[1.00] [379] Bindings of Bleak Betrayal(H) - Sinestra - The Bastion of Twilight (H)
<snip>
[0.58] [333] Bracers of Umbral Mending - Erudax - Grim Batol (N)
[0.57] [358] PvP failsafe crafted
[0.50] [316] PvE BoE drop

If PvP items are are added I will probably keep them separated from the PvE items, similar to how the TotFW items currently are.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.1)

Postby lythac » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:49 am

I've stuck the 4.2 list as the 3rd and 4th post now temporarily (post limit is 60k, list is 61k -.- )

Looking for some input for stat weightings to use. As long as Spi ≥Haste ≥Crit≥ Mastery then it is trivial for me to update the item score (reforging).
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.1)

Postby sherck » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:45 am

lythac wrote:I've stuck the 4.2 list as the 3rd and 4th post now temporarily (post limit is 60k, list is 61k -.- )

Looking for some input for stat weightings to use. As long as Spi ≥Haste ≥Crit≥ Mastery then it is trivial for me to update the item score (reforging).


The Elitist Jerks thread appears to be increasing the weight of both Crit and Mastery based on the changes to 200% crit heals and the slight change to Holy Paladin Mastery. No hard numbers yet but most posters are agreeing that those two are "closer" to Haste now in importance with at least one notable poster saying that those three are pretty much a wash after achieveing the Holy Radiance breakpoint.

So, the nearest thing I can see is:

Spirit (min 2500 rating in Tier-12; more if desired)

> Haste (below 1860 Holy Radiance breakpoint)

> Haste (after breakpoint) = Spirit (after 2500) = Critical Strike = Mastery.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.1)

Postby Kelaan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:08 pm

lythac wrote:Some of the 358 PvP crafted gear is interesting for those at the lower end of the scale as they are failsafe, bracers are a decent exmple of this -

[1.00] [379] Bindings of Bleak Betrayal(H) - Sinestra - The Bastion of Twilight (H)
<snip>
[0.58] [333] Bracers of Umbral Mending - Erudax - Grim Batol (N)
[0.57] [358] PvP failsafe crafted
[0.50] [316] PvE BoE drop

If PvP items are are added I will probably keep them separated from the PvE items, similar to how the TotFW items currently are.


Awesome, thanks! That's exactly the reason I was interested: PvP gear is roughly equivalent (rating/effectiveness) in some slots, and therefore potentially a good Failsafe gearing tactic. As long as you have rating numbers included, that'll make them comparable. (: (Of course my holy paladin is ~58 so it's a long way off.)
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.1)

Postby lythac » Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:51 am

I have updated the 4.2 list, with most sources included and changed the stat weights.

Mastery is probably valued a little bit too low for those who will be decked out in 378+ gear quickly and have no issues reaching suitable levels of Spirit and Haste.

Things I need to add -

Crafted PvP/Failsafe pieces
Sources of both T11 and T12
4.2 weapons
All trinkets (might not score trinkets and just sort by ilvl)
There is a least 1 random enhancement item that I need to track down. I might wait for the patch to hit and official armory to list the item so I can check what suffixes it can take.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby lythac » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:08 pm

I realise I never fully updated this for 4.2, my Holy ambitions failed and I more or less stopped playing.

I will update the list for 4.3 but it may just turn into a list sorted by ilvl and the scoring removed. I did enjoy using stat weights when some of the secondary stats were just awful, but now Mastery is becoming valued for AoE healing and the secondary stats are closer together that it comes down to - how much int is on a piece which is guided by ilvl?

I will be able to cut out a lot of the lower end of the lists with the crafted PvP pieces ilvls being bumped and hopefully eclipsing 346 dungeon pieces. Weapons are still a pain as there are no failsafes (except crafted 365 for gold which is too much for your alts/new char/offspec) but I think I might just stick an ilvl down as the secondary stats pale to the raw SP.

Thoughts/suggestions?
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby rodos » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:53 pm

Sounds like a good plan. Personally, I've been making gear choices mostly just by iLevel lately, though we're not doing hard modes. I'd say in 4.3 the secondary stats will be even more equivalent, or matters of taste.

Haste - the first break-point for Holy Radiance will be quite low, and the second too high to reach, so haste will mostly be a matter of personal choice.

Mastery - will be useful in more situations, and will also continue to have much higher value for a 25-man raider who can focus on tanks vs a 10-man who relies more on beacon heals.

Crit - well, throughput is throughput. More valuable if your overheal is low, or you spam HL through beacon, or you're casting a lot of Radiance. Less valuable if Dragon Soul damage is hard-hitting and you need reliable throughput.

Maybe some analysis of set bonus will be valuable - especially since Raid Finder will probably present a lot of us with the choice of 384 set pieces vs 397 offset pieces.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby lythac » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:06 pm

rodos wrote:Haste - the first break-point for Holy Radiance will be quite low, and the second too high to reach, so haste will mostly be a matter of personal choice.


I had wondered about breakpoints for Holy Radiance under Heroism and encounter specific mechanics. Deathwing final phase looks to be a good example of maybe trying to reach a breakpoint under Heroism if it is not too much rating.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby poptart » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:57 pm

lythac wrote:
rodos wrote:Haste - the first break-point for Holy Radiance will be quite low, and the second too high to reach, so haste will mostly be a matter of personal choice.


I had wondered about breakpoints for Holy Radiance under Heroism and encounter specific mechanics. Deathwing final phase looks to be a good example of maybe trying to reach a breakpoint under Heroism if it is not too much rating.


The Elitist Jerks Holy Paladin thread has those breakpoints. I can only remember the one that mattered most....

With 9% haste from Judgeing and 3% haste from Speed of Light, you only need 901 Haste rating to gain a 4th tick of Holy Radiance. The 5th tick was unobtainable without Divine Favor or Heroism so I did not really care about it (like 3500 rating required).

Personally, I am going to maintain around 1200-1300 Haste and then try to keep Mastery and Crit about even while maxamizing Spirit and Intellect. I really like how Mastery is looking in 4.3 but still know that the long pole in our tent is Divine Light.

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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby rodos » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:49 pm

According to EJ, 1% haste would be 128 rating.
Hero/Lust/TW is 30% = 3840 rating.
Divine Favor is 20% = 2560 rating

So if the break point is around 3500, you're always going to get a 5th tick with Hero, and you won't have to go far past the 901 break point to get a 5th tick with DF.

A 6th tick would require 100% haste = over 4800 rating with Hero and DF stacked. Not going to happen.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby lythac » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:50 pm

In non haste break points news, I will be cutting all the Al'Akir stuff and just stick down a blanket statement for weapons.

Am unsure atm what the lowest ilvl gear will feature on the list. I know the new crafted PvP gear will edge out 333 pieces and if it is close enough to 346 then I won't have them on the list anymore.

As for weightings with the haste breakpoint being easily obtainable it seems reasonable to weigh Haste/Mastery/Crit the same (Haste due to reforging) with higher for Spirit and then higher for int.
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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby poptart » Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:11 am

lythac wrote: In non haste break points news, I will be cutting all the Al'Akir stuff and just stick down a blanket statement for weapons.


This is probably a fine choice. Weapons are pretty much that the higher I-level almost always is better due to Spell Power and Intellect amounts always being higher. The amount of secondary stats on them rarely would ever justify a lower Item Level weapon.

lythac wrote:Am unsure atm what the lowest ilvl gear will feature on the list. I know the new crafted PvP gear will edge out 333 pieces and if it is close enough to 346 then I won't have them on the list anymore.


I would choose the lowest level "sure thing" item in a slot. Sure thing involves items that are "easily" craftable or obtainable by a brand new level 85.

Including the Nightweaver's necklace (365 from Molten Front vendor) is a great idea because it takes less than an hour of work at level 85 to go get it. It can be your "starting" point for that slot.

However, including a piece that takes unlocking one of the "Mark" vendors and days of dailies to do is probably not a good place to start your "sure thing" list at.

I would probably pick two "sure thing" items. One being "on the cheap" in terms of how much effort you want to put into it (JP 346 shield instead of the 359 crafted shield for example. 333 CoC quested weapon instead of the 365 crafted mace) and the other being a "best obtainable pre-raid" that includes crafted epics, rep grinds, VP purchases, and the like.

lythac wrote:As for weightings with the haste breakpoint being easily obtainable it seems reasonable to weigh Haste/Mastery/Crit the same (Haste due to reforging) with higher for Spirit and then higher for int.


I wish you could easily just turn Spirit into a "yes/no" weight category instead of assigning it a weighting number. A 20 point difference in Spirit can easily put a Dragon's Soul piece that has (single socket, Crit) but greater Spirit in front of a piece that has (dual socket, Mastery) but less Spirit. Sitting at 3k Spirit right now, I know which piece I would want to upgrade to.

But, otherwise, the settings I am runnign right now are:

Intellect = 100
Spirit = 85
Haste = 50 (I am planning to shoot for maintaining between 1300-1400)
Mastery = 45
Crit = 40

With a higher item level piece almost always being ranked higher (except being if the higher level piece does not contain Spirit but the lower one does).

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Re: [Holy Paladin] PvE Gear List (4.2)

Postby Kelaan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:08 am

poptart wrote:I would choose the lowest level "sure thing" item in a slot. Sure thing involves items that are "easily" craftable or obtainable by a brand new level 85.

Also, there will be a new batch of crafted PvP gear which will be a decent start - I've been healed in heroics by someone in 7/8 of the un-socketable PvP gear, and they did well. (I was shocked. I didn't even have to put on Real Tanking Gear most of the time.) Obviously, many things are better than those, but their massive ilevel budget ought to make it more viable for healing things that drop better stuff.

I would probably pick two "sure thing" items. One being "on the cheap" in terms of how much effort you want to put into it (JP 346 shield instead of the 359 crafted shield for example. 333 CoC quested weapon instead of the 365 crafted mace) and the other being a "best obtainable pre-raid" that includes crafted epics, rep grinds, VP purchases, and the like.

I think that's a very good idea.
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