HKM without a hunter......... is it possible?

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HKM without a hunter......... is it possible?

Postby Wakeman » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:29 pm

Last night was the most frustrating raid I had since I started tanking. My guild is a small guild. We joined with another guild to run Gruul Lair. Last night was our first attempt. I don't know why but we ended up with only one "hunter", who was from the other guild.

I was the best geared tank there and I believe I was geared enough for the job. (15k hp unbuffed, 15k armor, uncrittable & uncrushable. Sorry my armory is showing my healing gear atm.)

On the first pull, somehow no one mentioned anything about misdirection. I didn't know the danger of that pull and tried to pull with avenger shield. Before I got into range, the boss and the adds were aggroed. The other add tanks were not prepared. I was killed withing secs.

Before the second try, I asked our one and only one "hunter" to misdirect the boss to me. Then he told me he didn't haven't mirdirect!!!! I body pulled and died just like the first time.

On the third pull, we used a healadin to shield up and body pull first, then the respective tanks were supposed to pull their own target from the healadin. I made another mistake....... mindlessly I pressed Righteous defend. In fact, one of the taunt was resisted. But I still died within secs. I was not sure how many mobs were hitting me.

We called the raid after the third wipe.




I am still upset about it right now I'm typing. However, I would like to discuss more about the fight here.....

I posted in my guild forum confessing about my mistakes and insisted to have a "real" hunter to misdirect the boss to me if I was ever going to tank HKM again.

Besides, I actually suggested to have our other warrior tank to tank HKM after our second wipe. His gear was not bad, only about 1k health less than me and I believe this was good enough. I think a warrior tank can get a single target easier at such situation, isn't it?

Lastly, as an afterthought, I using the method of the third pull, I should have waited the healadin to shield up, body pull the boss and adds, then run to the boss and judge rigtheous on it. Will this works? Would I aggro the other mobs too using this method?
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Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:15 pm

To do without a hunter you basically need a boomkin for the Shaman.
Well, you can actually have also 2 random ranged DPS on the shaman, but boomkins are better due to immunity to poly, and tend to have more HP than the regular caster.

After that, you should let the mage "pull", have the designated tanks grab their targets in some ways.

Druids -> Feral Charge -> Growl
Warriors -> Intercept -> Defensive Stance -> Taunt
Paladin -> Avenger Shield, or run in and Judgement of Righteousness/Blood

Basically place all the tanks in the middle of the wall, then when the mage is ready, let him start counting the cast time on his fireball-pyroblast-whatever, when it's 1 second left, Maulgar tank runs in and grabs him to the spot, the Boomkin moonfires a couple of times on the shaman to get aggro, the Warlock tanks walk to him (he will be summoning on the pull, so they have time) and bring him into position, and some ranged dps uses some high threat move to pull the priest (PoM Pyro or Searing Pain, or whatever) and his tank then taunts him and tanks him.

Just requires some coordination. Obviously hunters make this encounter kinda trivial.

The "healadin shield up" was definitively stupid to do, honestly.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:28 pm

80% of the HKM fight is about the pull. If you're all alive 45 seconds after the pull, that's most of the fight right there.

If your partner guild is bringing hunters without misdirect, you're looking at all kinds of fail. If the other people in that guild aren't significantly better than that hunter, you're probably better off looking in /2 than going with them again.
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Postby Wakeman » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:27 pm

Thanks for the reply!

If only we know about the mage pull method at that time.....

Some questions about the mage pull. Should the mage ice block after he launched the fireball? If I use avenger shield, wouldn't it hit and pull three targets to me?



BTW, I would have suggested /raidkick that hunter if he was in my guild. I don't know if the raid leader of their guild whispered or did anything to him. Anyway, I made mistakes too during the pull, so I guess I don't have the right to comment on him..... Though it is probably true that their guild is not very good. I checked the gear of their tanks on armory. Mostly blue. None of them had health close to me and our other warrior tank. Not sure about the healers and dps.
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Postby Balls » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:06 am

Mage shouldn't have to iceblock because all the tanks should know what they're doing. In fact, Ice Block is a Very Bad Thing because if he does, and the mage comes for you? Arcing Smash + Greater Fireball + Maulgor White Hit = GG.
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Postby Everlight » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:37 pm

Yep, HKM is all about the pull. If you get the pull right, you will usually win - barring the MT getting a nasty combo from Maulgar himself.
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Postby Erutaron » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:47 am

Requirements for HKM Fight: (IMO)

1. Mage with minimum 9500 HP buffed, tanking the mage
2. 2 true "Tanks" for HKM/Warlock
3. 2 Warlocks to enslave the felhunters
4. Boomkin/Feral Druid/2 Hunters to "tank" the shaman
5. DPS warrior, Shaman, etc.. to "tank" the priest (Needs to generate a good amount of threat very quickly as the priest is the first burn target) Prot Paladin's actually do this job very well due to the large up-front threat.
6. 8-9 healers when you are first learning the fight, less as you get used the fight/get better gear
---3 on HKM Tank
---1 for Mage Tank
---1 for Priest Tank
---1 for Warlock Tank, 2 if you are using 2 tanks instead of 1 and the felhunters
---2 for Shaman tanks (if you have 2 hunters)
---1 Raid healing

What we always used to do, was the mage would call the pull, when his countdown was at 1, the "tanks" started running in, they would all either feral charge/intercept/etc... to pick up thier tanks.

We always tanked the mage where he stood and positioned everyone else accordingly. We tried to keep HKM against the back wall, pulled the shaman over by the gate to Gruul, and pulled the priest to the DPS'ers waiting at the opening into the room, and the lock got tanked against the south wall.

-Suggested Kill Order

1. Priest --> Easy to kill, make sure you burn thru his PW:S and kick his heals (Can be silenced if you have a Shadow Priest w/ Silence in the raid)
2. Warlock --> Death Coils frequently, all DPS can go all out to bring him down, Make sure that anytime he casts a new Felhunter that your warlocks are enslaving/banishing them ASAP, they will tear thru your healers if let loose for too long.
3. Mage & Shaman --> Ranged go to the Mage, Melee to the Shaman, Ranged just have to be careful not to get too close to the Mage to get hit with blastwave.
4. HKM --> If you get to this point with over 75% of your raid standing, it should be a done deal, HKM does fear and whirlwind, but he is tauntable, so have an offtank ready to pick him up and drag him back to you if you get feared.


As everyone else has said, this fight is all about the pull and getting the 5 of the mobs into position, the healers in good positions to heal/avoid dmg. If you can reliably do this, the fight is just about killing the targets in the order you choose.

If you are having problems picking up HKM, hit him with a JoBlood, as it cannot miss and will give you enough threat over the proximity aggro the mage has.
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Postby Wakeman » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:06 pm

Thanks again all! Useful information!

My guild leader told me that he would try to bring 3-4 hunters next time if possible. (May need to make sure those hunters all have learnt misdirect before inviting. :wink: ) I think this will make the pull easier. Looking forward to the next Gruul.
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Postby Morvant » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:58 pm

  1. A hunter who "doesn't have misdirect" is probably a pvp-focused hunter who needs to get a bit more of a pve clue. It's just a lvl 70 spell that he needs to talk to the trainer to get. It costs 17G (according to the wowhead page), which is a ton of money for someonbe who rarely leaves a bg, but if this hunter wants to raid, he needs to spend the cash.
  2. [url=http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11905]Linken's Boomerang
    [/url]
  3. The Decapitator, I use this for single pulls all the time.
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Postby Hobodin » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:33 pm

Hunters make the pull infinitely easier. And HKM is all about the pull as said earlier.
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Postby emille » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:44 pm

I see from your armory you are an Engineer, are you a goblin engineer or a gnome engineer?

If you are a goblin engineer, I suggest you craft Goblin Rocket Launcher, aweome stamina, as well as providing you an extra single target pull.
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Postby Wakeman » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:27 am

Morvant wrote:A hunter who "doesn't have misdirect" is probably a pvp-focused hunter who needs to get a bit more of a pve clue. It's just a lvl 70 spell that he needs to talk to the trainer to get. It costs 17G (according to the wowhead page), which is a ton of money for someonbe who rarely leaves a bg, but if this hunter wants to raid, he needs to spend the cash.


While what you said might be true sometimes, I can reassure you that that particular hunter I mentioned was simply a noob. -_-"
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Postby Wakeman » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:40 am

emille wrote:I see from your armory you are an Engineer, are you a goblin engineer or a gnome engineer?

If you are a goblin engineer, I suggest you craft Goblin Rocket Launcher, aweome stamina, as well as providing you an extra single target pull.



Thanks. Actually I have it as my standard tanking trinket. Unfortunately the armory is fxxked up currently and still showing my healing gear I weared last week. Blizz said that they were going to fix it this week.

But yet, I am not sure if the rocket can help in this pull. It has a long casting time. It is also said that the threat the rocket generated is attributed to the rocket launcher itself instead of me. If this is true, it may not help at all here.....
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