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Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notice.

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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:10 pm

Arnock wrote:I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of guns owned by the cartels were acquired by illegal means, making legal purchases more difficult won't do much to keep the cartels from obtaining guns, nor would it do anything about the weapons that they already have.


You are half correct. Cartels are transporting arms across the border illegally, and in most cases it is illegal to even own a gun in Mexico. So yes the guns were acquired by illegal means in Mexico. However "the vast majority" of guns owned by the cartels were acquired by legal means in the United States. Only when they cross into Mexico do they become illegal.

I had read something similar to this article years ago but this pretty much sums it up. It's a pretty interesting read:

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/reports/exporting-gun-violence.pdf

Basically it comes down to the loopholes. Private dealers, either at gun shows or other outlets, are not legally required to do a background check to sell arms. Some states don't limit "bulk" gun sales from even licensed dealers. etc...

It is absolutely ridiculous that buying large quantities of guns at any one time is legal. And it is even more unbelievable that it is possible to legally purchase guns without a background check.

I'm still going to stand by my opinion that the legalization of drugs, stricter gun laws, and tightening the border into Mexico are the most effective means to crippling these cartels short of annexing Mexico or the US armed forces being mobilized against the cartels.

Oh and what Klaudandus said, he just beat me to the punch.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:48 am

Yes, the guy in Texas was a crap storm (but he did not break a law, they buyers did), and you are saying that like it was the only way they could get arms. It's not, they are motivated and they have money. If it's not some guy in Texas, they'll get it from arms dealers over seas or even through bribing local military.

Honestly where they get the arms from doesn't matter as much as their seeming ability to completely disregard the laws of their own land with impunity. It is up to Mexico to enforce the laws of Mexico, not Texas.

I would actually argue that Mexico's laws preventing the normal everyday person from owning a gun is what allows criminal activity of this magnitude to run rampant. The criminals have no reason to be afraid of the local population, to the point where they can go and assassinate prominant law enforcement officials within days of their taking office.

I really feel for the people of Mexico, but until the corruption of Mexico is stamped out, it will only continue to get worse.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Thalia » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:31 am

If they don't get guns from us they will get them somewhere else. You know we have seized submarines from them. They have submarines and boats.

Also they can corrupt their ports and just start getting them from overseas.

Ya taking guns away from us will just make us more vulnerable to them since they will still find a way to get guns. So what will be left, the good citizens will be defenseless.

There is gun control and no death penalty in Mexico, still don't make a difference, they still shoot and kill there.

Again, I feel like they are as bad as the Nazis, they are evil, they need to be wiped out.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:43 am

Or, at the very least, a thorough ass kicking.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:26 am

I have never once stated that we should ban gun ownership. However there is absolutely no reason to allow "bulk" gun sales. Who the hell, other than government agencies, needs to buy dozens or hundreds of guns at any one time? That is completely unacceptable. And being able to purchase guns without a background check?! Why would anyone in America want this to be happening?

Sure they can turn to other sources. But the difference in quality, quantity, price and logistics of these arms would be very significant. The United States is making it too convenient for these organizations to arm themselves. There is a significant difference in crossing the ocean with a boat or makeshift submarine than going a few hundred miles up the coast, or even simply walking across a border.

Tev wrote:I would actually argue that Mexico's laws preventing the normal everyday person from owning a gun is what allows criminal activity of this magnitude to run rampant. The criminals have no reason to be afraid of the local population, to the point where they can go and assassinate prominant law enforcement officials within days of their taking office.


smh. If every Mexican citizen was running around with an AK that would somehow solve all of their problems?

Tev wrote:I really feel for the people of Mexico, but until the corruption of Mexico is stamped out, it will only continue to get worse.


It is ultimately the Mexican governments fault that the cartels were able to establish a strong foothold. But the united states is both the market for the cartel's illegal exports and the market for their illegal imports. Not only the fact that we are buying their drugs and supplying their arms, but we are their neighbor and the violence is spilling over into the United States. We own some of the responsibilty for this. We are allowing this to continue to happen and it gets worse everyday.

Short of something very drastic like annexation or mobilization of our military forces against the cartels what else can we do to stop these organizations? Why does war always have to be the answer?
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:40 am

Gab wrote:smh. If every Mexican citizen was running around with an AK that would somehow solve all of their problems?


I never stated or implied that it would solve all their problems, but they would no longer be the easy prey for the cartels who oppress them, enslave them, and kill them without repercussion. The statement that every Mexican would be running around with an AK is both ignorant and absurd.

Gab wrote:It is ultimately the Mexican governments fault that the cartels were able to establish a strong foothold. But the united states is both the market for the cartel's illegal exports and the market for their illegal imports. Not only the fact that we are buying their drugs and supplying their arms, but we are their neighbor and the violence is spilling over into the United States. We own some of the responsibilty for this. We are allowing this to continue to happen and it gets worse everyday.

Short of something very drastic like annexation or mobilization of our military forces against the cartels what else can we do to stop these organizations? Why does war always have to be the answer?


The difference is that, at least some of us, are trying to stop the drugs and the violence. What makes this difficult is that we are not only facing foreign resistance, but a large amount of domestic resistance as well. We don't need to go to war, we need some good intel and precision strikes. The red tape involved means that by the time we are cleared for an operation, the target has been informed (usually by the same officials we have to pass through to get authorization to operate in Mexico), and is gone by the time we get there. The US can only help Mexico so much... Mexico first and foremost needs to help itself.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:34 am

Tev wrote:The statement that every Mexican would be running around with an AK is both ignorant and absurd.


Yeah maybe that was a little over dramatic, but it's the principle.

Tev wrote:The difference is that, at least some of us, are trying to stop the drugs and the violence. What makes this difficult is that we are not only facing foreign resistance, but a large amount of domestic resistance as well. We don't need to go to war, we need some good intel and precision strikes. The red tape involved means that by the time we are cleared for an operation, the target has been informed (usually by the same officials we have to pass through to get authorization to operate in Mexico), and is gone by the time we get there. The US can only help Mexico so much... Mexico first and foremost needs to help itself.


This might be at a point where Mexico is unable to help itself.

And after we have decimated the cartels and created a brand new power vacuum in the United States drug market who will be the next to step up and fill the role? We aren't solving the root cause of the issues, anyone will still be able to purchase guns from the United States and use them for violence. There will still be criminal organizations that supply the United States with their drugs. And who's to say these organizations wont become more powerful and more barbaric than the current organizations?

The United States has put itself into this position by mainting unnecessary drug laws and unacceptable gun laws.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:08 am

Arnock wrote:Forgive me if I come across as rude here, but isn't the legalization of marijuana more or less... irrelevant to the situation with the Mexican drug cartels? From what I understand, most pot production comes form more local/homegrown sources than smuggled in from other countries, and the Mexican cartels focus on 'harder' drugs like meth, cocaine and heroine.

On a larger scale, would the legalization of hard drugs in America hurt the cartels? Undoubtedly, yes. However, the Mexican government isn't exactly strong and/or stable enough to actually take advantage of the blow that the cartel's would take, and they would soon after find new markets for their drugs, and move onto other methods of making money.


As for legalizing hard drugs in America, in the short term, I don't believe that there would be a huge swarm of people eager to start doing crack or heroine, but in the long term, usage WILL go up.

I beg to differ.

One of the reason, if the not the most important for people to start doing something is that is not permitted.

A good example could Holland, where is legal to consume various drugs and you have on average less Dutch user than many other European countries, and of those the vast majority are casual users against the more habitual users that you find in other places where is illegal. Being that is legal you approach the drug with a whole different perspective, moreover is also a safer use, as in countries where is illegal you need to find your pusher, go in dodgy areas and consume it somewhere hidden (if you can't at home), where in Holland you get out with your friend, go to a coffeeshop and enjoy whatever is you want in a nice cozy place that also serves drinks and food.


A similar example could be made for alcohol, I'm Italian and I grew up in Florence, I was a kid when I was first given some wine and I think the first time I went to the pub with my friends I must have been 15, for us alcohol was something completely normal, in Italy you go out, you pick your drink and you taste it, you want something because you like it and you don't feel the need to abuse it for the forbidden taste, wonder instead who was constantly getting shitfaced night after night? Mostly were Americans students, guys spending time in Florence to 'study arts' that since in their own country they can't drink until are 21, get to Italy were you can do what you want and don't end up well.

Now I've been living in England for the past 6 years, 21 years old to drink, you go out on Friday night and people are drunk as fuck at every corner, I've never seen as many drunk girls as in this country, lots of people don't drink for the sake of a good drink, but focus only on getting smashed.
A kid that wants a drink has to find some big brother to buy for him or the dodgy off-license that will sell him, and then will go in some garden or some hidden place where he can drink without getting caught.


Legalising doesn't mean increased use and abuse.


Tev wrote:Yes, the guy in Texas was a crap storm (but he did not break a law, they buyers did), and you are saying that like it was the only way they could get arms. It's not, they are motivated and they have money. If it's not some guy in Texas, they'll get it from arms dealers over seas or even through bribing local military.

Sure, like one thing is to go to your local superstore and buy 20 Aks, another is having to find illegal sources. What the hell do you sell AKs for anyway!?

When you have easy legal sources across the border and you can legally buy in bulk, all is left is to smuggle in Mexico, all a different story would be if they actually had to find it on the black market, they could still have it, would cost them more, they could buy less, would not be as reliable.

So, what we have so far? You make marijuana legal and you cut a good chunk of their income, you work some restrictions on weapon sales and their expenses go up.

It's not like they have infinite funds, cut their profits and raise their expenses and even them will ahve difficulties.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:46 am

degre wrote:Snipped


Nice to have a foreign perspective on this again.

Just as with Holland take a look at reports from Portugal. Crimes are down, diseases such as HIV and Hep are down drastically, and a portion of the money they were spending on enforcement, prosecution and incarceration are instead being spent on rehabilitation and treatment. Also people are more likely to seek treatment when they don't need to fear incarceration.

Reports show a slight increase in "life time" users, but considering that drugs are now decriminalized this could be attributed to the fact that people are now more willing to share that they are users because there are no longer legal reprecussions.
Last edited by Gab on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby cerwillis » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:55 am

Gab wrote:
degre wrote:Snipped


Nice to have a foreign perspective on this again.

Just as with Holland take a look at reports from Portugal. Crimes are down, diseases such as HIV and Hep are down drastically, and a portion of the money they were spending on enforcement, prosecution and incarceration are instead being spent on rehabilitation and treatment. Also people are more likely to seek treatment when they don't need to fear incarceration.

Reports show a slight increase in "life time" users, but considering that drugs are now decriminalized this could be attributed to the fact that people are now more willing to share the fact that they are users because there are no longer legal reprecussions.

What these guys said...
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:41 pm

Please don't site studies that don't include a source.

If you want a good study, here are a few tidbits. (taken from http://www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/a ... myths.html)
From 1919 to 1922, government-sponsored clinics handed out free drugs to addicts in hopes of controlling their behavior, and it failed. [source: Jill Jonnes, "Forgotten History of Legal Drugs," The Baltimore Sun 16 February 1995.]

California decriminalized marijuana in 1976, and, within the first six months, arrests for driving under the influence of drugs rose 46 percent for adults and 71.4 percent for juveniles.[Peggy Mann, Reasons to Oppose Legalizing Illegal Drugs (Danvers: Committee of Correspondence, Inc., September, 1988)]

Decriminalizing marijuana in Alaska and Oregon in the 1970s resulted in the doubling of use.[Wayne J. Roques, "Decriminalizing Drugs Would Be A Disaster," The Miami Herald 20 January 1995]

Patrick Murphy, a court-appointed lawyer for 31,000 abused and neglected children in Chicago, says that more than 80 percent of the cases of physical and sexual abuse of children now involve drugs. There is no evidence that legalizing drugs will reduce these crimes, and there is evidence that suggests it would worsen the problem.[Don Feder, "Legalizers Plan Harvard Pot Party," The Boston Herald 19 May 1994]


I pulled a few notable excerpts, I think it's a really good read.

One of the reason, if the not the most important for people to start doing something is that is not permitted.


Not True. The number one reason someone gets into drugs (or anything) is peer preasure, from there the use of one drug typically leads to others. Saying that people use something because it isn't permitted sounds like a rebellious teenager, not your typical adult.

Legalizing something will make the use go up, there is no reason it wouldn't. People use drugs for enjoyment, coping, and to satify addiction. Since most of these drugs impare judgement in some fashion, it becomes very easy to use them in excess without a 3rd party to prevent that.

In the end, if people aren't responsible enough to safely handle Pot, then I cannot support legalizing it. When I read in the local paper about someone getting nailed with his 16th OWI (from alcohol, which is legal), this time from a fatal accident, I realize that people in general don't have the self control needed to make these practices acceptable.

My family has been fighting hard to help my brother with his problem, and every time he starts doing good, one of his so called friends drags him down, and we usually end up having to bail him out of jail. It really hurts to see people so blinded by their desire to legalize drugs so they can use whenever they want, that they will ignore the truth and facts. It's so easy to be on the side od drugs when you haven't seen first hand the harm they can do.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Tev wrote:Please don't site studies that don't include a source.


My apologies but I'm at work and there are some pretty strict filters on our net. Most everything tagged "Weapons/Guns" or "Drugs" is blocked...

I also did site the brady study last night regarding fire arms in Mexico.

I was able to access this article that sites a Cato study:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

A quote found there:

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."

Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.

The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

Portugal's case study is of some interest to lawmakers in the U.S., confronted now with the violent overflow of escalating drug gang wars in Mexico. The U.S. has long championed a hard-line drug policy, supporting only international agreements that enforce drug prohibition and imposing on its citizens some of the world's harshest penalties for drug possession and sales. Yet America has the highest rates of cocaine and marijuana use in the world, and while most of the E.U. (including Holland) has more liberal drug laws than the U.S., it also has less drug use.

"I think we can learn that we should stop being reflexively opposed when someone else does [decriminalize] and should take seriously the possibility that anti-user enforcement isn't having much influence on our drug consumption," says Mark Kleiman, author of the forthcoming When Brute Force Fails: How to Have Less Crime and Less Punishment and director of the drug policy analysis program at UCLA. Kleiman does not consider Portugal a realistic model for the U.S., however, because of differences in size and culture between the two countries.


Kleiman says it's not a realistic model for the U.S. That doesn't mean however that we would or would not see similar effects. There's no way to tell for sure. But our drug laws are not only excessive but unecessary. We are creating more problems by imposing these drugs laws than the drugs themselves are causing.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Tev wrote:My family has been fighting hard to help my brother with his problem, and every time he starts doing good, one of his so called friends drags him down, and we usually end up having to bail him out of jail. It really hurts to see people so blinded by their desire to legalize drugs so they can use whenever they want, that they will ignore the truth and facts. It's so easy to be on the side od drugs when you haven't seen first hand the harm they can do.


I am sorry about your brother. I know where you are coming from. My cousin, whom I was very close to, overdosed on Oxycontin after years of stuggling with heroin addiction. I have lost both friends and family to drug use. My motives are far from legalization for my purpose of using, I have not used illegal drugs since I was a teenager and never plan on doing so again legal or illegal. Please don't assume that I'm ignoring facts because I know all too well the effect that drugs can have on people.

However the benefits of legalization, in my mind, far outweigh the risks.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby cerwillis » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:31 pm

If drugs were decriminalized, you might be picking up your brother at a hospital instead of jail. And your story also reinforces our point as it is obvious that your brother is a burden on the legal system and that prohibition has failed in rehabilitating him.

At this point, it is not fair to argue for prohibition by listing the harmful effects of illegal drugs. Prescription drugs kill more people than cocaine and heroin COMBINED, Source 1 and if the 'drugs are harmful, therefore they should be illegal' argument holds water, then it would be logical to argue that automobiles should also be illegal. They kill far more people, including bystanders that choose not to drive. It is impossible to do permanent damage with marijuana in it's standard form. If you could possibly smoke enough to kill yourself, you would die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

CDC wrote:Statistically, death directly from marijuana overdose is extremely rare. The CDC reports that between 1999 and 2007, there were 26 deaths with marijuana as an underlying cause, in the United States. This was out of a counted population of 2,615,523,905. When it comes to smoking, most statistics say it will take about 800 joints in a short period of time to actually overdose a person to the point of death. A person should be vomiting or passed out well before this point. When used long term, the smoke itself does contain chemicals that can eventually cause respiratory issues, such as COPD or cancer.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Kelaan » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:39 pm

Tev wrote:Legalizing something will make the use go up, there is no reason it wouldn't. People use drugs for enjoyment, coping, and to satify addiction. Since most of these drugs impare judgement in some fashion, it becomes very easy to use them in excess without a 3rd party to prevent that.

People can already get chemicals legally which impair their judgement and behavior, though: alcohol, painkillers, etc. They DO abuse them, and the abuse is against the law, but transporting/selling/etc the stuff is all legal (with licenses/oversight). We've already seen that criminalizing it doesn't really curb the use of it very much.

My family has been fighting hard to help my brother with his problem, and every time he starts doing good, one of his so called friends drags him down, and we usually end up having to bail him out of jail.... It's so easy to be on the side od drugs when you haven't seen first hand the harm they can do.

If it were legal to obtain and use drugs, perhaps people could use it without being in an environment or relationship that leads to jail time. If the only way to get it is to risk being arrested, or rob people to pay money to dodgy pushers, etc, then of course it will be problematic. Now imagine that addicts could go get it at the grocery store along with a case of cigarettes and a case of beer. Card him, tax him, but it's just another expensive luxury good.

How much of the harm you refer to is due to the fact that even carrying it is illegal, versus bad decisions made while under its influence? You mention peer pressure, but keep in mind that while it's illegal, a user's "peers" are criminals, smugglers, and so on. Once it's legal, you could go and take it in an officially sanctioned and licensed manner, without having to surround yourself with people who resort to violence.
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