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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:13 am

degre wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Also, stuff like this makes me wonder why we are in Afghanistan and not Mexico. I would gladly go fight a peacekeeping and stabilization mission in Mexico. At least the Mexicans have nationalistic pride, a desire for a functional government, a culture consistent with democracy, and a functioning society.
Not like the afghans.

because the USA don't move for charity, they move for money, and they have no gain in invading Mexico, while they have gains in Afghanistan and they had gain in invading as well Iraq and Libia.


Actually, Mexico has copper mines, huge gas deposits and moderate to large oil deposits that are in the mexican side of the gulf of mexico.

I think the difference is that they don't belong to OPEC.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:21 am

Brekkie wrote:Legalization and regulation are all well and good in theory, but when people talk about it they are mostly referring to just Marijuana, and *possibly* cocain.
But no government in the world would be able to justify legalizing the serious hardcore stuff that irrevocably fucks up your brain from a single use (such as acid or meth).


In Portugal all drugs have been decriminalized. Most reports/studies from Portugal are showing positive trends for drug use,violent crimes associated with drug use, deaths caused by drug use, and HIV from drug use.

I recently read an article from Time, and also an article
from Scientific American that talk about some of these trends. I'll edit with links when I get home from work.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:30 am

Gab wrote:P.S. Degre well said, you posted as I was typing this up. Although I seriously think legalization/decriminalization of even hard core drugs would only benefit us. I could go out and find any drug I wanted right now. Am I going to? Nope. Will I be able to go out and find any drug if it were legalized? Sure. But I'm still not going to.

Imho, To begin with is definitely a big no, would be already hard to shove down people throats the legalisation of marijuana, even though in some states is already legal for medical purpose, going on liberalisation en-masse could potentially create too many problems, especially in minorities with voices.

At a later stage I'm still against it and we could discuss it, but while some pot doesn't harm you, heavier drugs have both direct damage and dependence issues.


Klaudandus wrote:Actually, Mexico has copper mines, huge gas deposits and moderate to large oil deposits that are in the mexican side of the gulf of mexico.

I think the difference is that they don't belong to OPEC.

Which is very different from what Afghanistan has to offer as we are talking about not only gas or oils, but rare minerals such as Uranium, while in the case of Iraq and Libia the thread was purely monetary and could have brought US economy on its knees, as earlier Saddam Hussain wanted to switch from Petrodollar to Euro, being that he had more relationships in Europe, then Gaddafi wanted to do it even worse as he was dealing with other African nations to create a common African currency (Gold Dinar) and trade oil in that currency.
Both moves not only would have switched powers, but would have collapsed the US economy that is based on printing dollars and distribute it around the globe, because if you want to trade oil you are forced to have a dollar reserve, changing the trading value means that everyone would give back their dollars and the green note would be worth less than the paper is printed on.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:55 am

degre wrote:Imho, To begin with is definitely a big no, would be already hard to shove down people throats the legalisation of marijuana, even though in some states is already legal for medical purpose, going on liberalisation en-masse could potentially create too many problems, especially in minorities with voices.

At a later stage I'm still against it and we could discuss it, but while some pot doesn't harm you, heavier drugs have both direct damage and dependence issues.


And Alcohol, Tobacco, Food addiction, self mutilation etc etc etc don't have "direct damage and dependence issues"? Drug use/addiction is not a criminal issue, it's a medical issue.

The world view on drugs is shifting. Illicit drugs have already been decriminalzied in Portugal, Italy and Spain. Mexico is working on decriminalization as we speek. Why couldn't the US be the first to totally legalize it, or in the least join with these other 1st world countries in decriminalization?

America legalized drug use in 1933. The drug was alcohol, and the 21st amendment legalized its production, distribution and sale. Both alcohol consumption and violent crime dropped immediately as a result. Not until the 1960s did consumption in the United States exceed pre-Prohibition levels. With history as a model there is no reason to suggest that legalization of illicit drugs wouldn't do the same.

Last time I checked, I have the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. If I want to drink drano I can, but I can't smoke a joint or snort a line? Illicit drugs are NO different than alcohol.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:07 am

Gab wrote:
degre wrote:Imho, To begin with is definitely a big no, would be already hard to shove down people throats the legalisation of marijuana, even though in some states is already legal for medical purpose, going on liberalisation en-masse could potentially create too many problems, especially in minorities with voices.

At a later stage I'm still against it and we could discuss it, but while some pot doesn't harm you, heavier drugs have both direct damage and dependence issues.


And Alcohol, Tobacco, Food addiction, self mutilation etc etc etc don't have "direct damage and dependence issues"? Drug use/addiction is not a criminal issue, it's a medical issue.

The world view on drugs is shifting. Illicit drugs have already been decriminalzied in Portugal, Italy and Spain. Mexico is working on decriminalization as we speek. Why couldn't the US be the first to totally legalize it, or in the least join with these other 1st world countries in decriminalization?

America legalized drug use in 1933. The drug was alcohol, and the 21st amendment legalized its production, distribution and sale. Both alcohol consumption and violent crime dropped immediately as a result. In 1933. After prohibition per-capita consumption of alcohol was significantly reduced. Not until the 1960s did consumption in the United States exceed pre-Prohibition levels. With history as a model there is no reason to suggest that legalization of illicit drugs wouldn't do the same.

Last time I checked, I have the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. If I want to drink drano I can, but I can't smoke a joint or snort a line? Illicit drugs are NO different than alcohol.

I see your reasons and that is why I said that I'm up for discussions, I realise that being against higher class drugs in a way I'm voiding what I've said for other stuff, but mainly is due to the fact that I wont like to liberalise all in one go.

As for Italy has been decriminalised possession, but trust me when I say that they can still give you trouble. For possession you can still face trial, you'll have to pay a lawyer, go to court to have your sentenced dropped and you'll likely face a 'rehabilitation' period where you'll be followed by a medical team that will want to monitor you with constant drug tests and psychological counselling.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fivelives » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:59 am

The problem we would face from the cartels would be far worse than the one we ever faced with the mafia. For a few reasons, actually.

The mafia didn't have an endless supply of manpower that they would throw into a firefight. Even the Valentine's Day Massacre was only 7 people. The cartels, on the other hand, do. They don't have any respect for life at all.

Speaking of respect for life, the mafia relied on intimidation and the threat of harm to the people involved themselves. Judges, police officers, etc - but they restrained themselves. The mob would never make you watch them rape and torture your family to death before leaving your severed head in your lap just to leave a warning to others. When mafia intimidation and coercion efforts failed, they folded; look at Eliot Ness vs Al Capone, for example.

The mafia also didn't encourage other crime in their areas of operation. There used to be a saying about Las Vegas when the mob ran it - it was so safe when the mafia ran it that you could go to the worst neighborhood in town, leave your wallet stuffed full with cash on the ground, then come back a day or two later and it would still be there. Cartels, on the other hand, encourage violence and chaos, so long as it doesn't target them personally.

It's easy to think that we could deal with the cartels in the same way we dealt with the mafia at the end of prohibition (and it's still going on today - they just swept up 100+ mafia members this year in NYC), but the problem is simple. We can't.

Oh, and a gray market isn't what you were thinking of. If we legalize and regulate the sale of drugs, but people still buy from the cartels, that's a gray market. The product is legal, but the distribution channel isn't.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Kelaan » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:29 pm

Fivelives wrote:It's easy to think that we could deal with the cartels in the same way we dealt with the mafia at the end of prohibition... but the problem is simple. We can't.

Why not?

Oh, and a gray market isn't what you were thinking of. If we legalize and regulate the sale of drugs, but people still buy from the cartels, that's a gray market. The product is legal, but the distribution channel isn't.

If selling/growing/transport/using is legal, why would people buy from the cartels? Most consumers would buy it from the local pharmacy, I'd expect, just as they can with liquor or cigarettes, and you can bet that Costco and Walmart would have it by the case, too, at some point. Where would CVS, Safeway, Vons, etc be buying it from? (I presume that Walmart would buy from Whoever, but perhaps I'm libeling them too much.)

Moreover, the people who DO grow such things (or might) are likely somewhat disposted to want to participate in the organic food movement, so you'll see shops carrying Certified Organic (or something) pot, and I imagine that the oversight necessary for that would make it harder to be involved w/ the cartels.

Of course, there's not much to stop the cartels from showing up at your doors with some machetes, but on the other hand, I'd not be surprised if the DEA were to watch now-legal growers somewhat carefully in hopes of uncovering such cartel involvement. Basically, if the growers can avoid being intimidated, I expect that the market will support them more than it does imported stuff. No grocery chain will buy heavily tariffed imported stuff when they can get local stuff cheaper, and they won't risk buying smuggled stuff (IMO).
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:39 pm

Gab wrote:America legalized drug use in 1933. The drug was alcohol, and the 21st amendment legalized its production, distribution and sale. Both alcohol consumption and violent crime dropped immediately as a result. Not until the 1960s did consumption in the United States exceed pre-Prohibition levels. With history as a model there is no reason to suggest that legalization of illicit drugs wouldn't do the same.

Last time I checked, I have the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. If I want to drink drano I can, but I can't smoke a joint or snort a line? Illicit drugs are NO different than alcohol.


I'm not really opposed to legalizing marijuana, but for some reason proponents of legalization like to point fingers at alcohol as an example of where legalization has worked, and I think the comparisons are flawed. The two drugs are really quite different in one subtle but incredibly meaningful way that is often overlooked. Currently in the US, (some jurisdictions may vary) it is NOT legal to be drunk outside of your home. Alcohol is different than these other drugs in that that vast majority of it's consumption is not intended to get you high/drunk. On the flip side, nearly every usage of pot, is with the intent (and usually success) to get high. Imagine if every beer, glass of wine, cocktail consumed made the person drunk. That's a monumental difference, and certainly access would be very very different than it is today. There's no reasonable way to use these drugs without reaching a state that is currently illegal even for alcohol.

Also, I'm pretty sure using products like Draino (though I don't know about draino specifically) in the manner that you describe is also illegal, the warning about that legality is usually even written on the label.

Fivelives, why would people continue to buy from a grey market when they could get it from reputable sources, or even grow their own?
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Kelaan » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:58 pm

Fridmarr wrote:The two drugs are really quite different in one subtle but incredibly meaningful way that is often overlooked. ... It is NOT legal to be drunk outside of your home. Alcohol is different than these other drugs in that that vast majority of it's consumption is not intended to get you high/drunk.... There's no reasonable way to use these drugs without reaching a state that is currently illegal even for alcohol.

That's interesting. However, I expect a large number of people who want to get high want to do it not in public, but in their own home (or at parties). I have NO problem with legalizing using it, and cracking down just as hard on public intoxication (whether via alcohol or pot) as we deem necessary, as long as it is done equitably. I think it's very reasonable to prohibit public high-ness just as we do public drunkenness.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:24 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I'm not really opposed to legalizing marijuana, but for some reason proponents of legalization like to point fingers at alcohol as an example of where legalization has worked, and I think the comparisons are flawed. The two drugs are really quite different in one subtle but incredibly meaningful way that is often overlooked. Currently in the US, (some jurisdictions may vary) it is NOT legal to be drunk outside of your home. Alcohol is different than these other drugs in that that vast majority of it's consumption is not intended to get you high/drunk. On the flip side, nearly every usage of pot, is with the intent (and usually success) to get high. Imagine if every beer, glass of wine, cocktail consumed made the person drunk. That's a monumental difference, and certainly access would be very very different than it is today. There's no reasonable way to use these drugs without reaching a state that is currently illegal even for alcohol.


Just like with alcohol there are varying degrees of intoxication with drugs as well. If I smoke one hit of marijuana I will be much less intoxicated than if I were to take ten hits for example. It's the same principle as alcohol. Alcohol is just as easy to abuse as any illicit drug, and alters one's state of mind. Sounds like a drug to me.

And as far as intoxication not being legal in the US, there are many states where public intoxication is legal; Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, Wisconsin to name a few. Also in some states you can only be arrested for public intoxication if you are disturbing the peace, or endangering yourself or others. Which would get you arrested regardless if you were drunk or not.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:04 pm

Gab wrote:And as far as intoxication not being legal in the US, there are many states where public intoxication is legal; Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, Wisconsin to name a few. Also in some states you can only be arrested for public intoxication if you are disturbing the peace, or endangering yourself or others. Which would get you arrested regardless if you were drunk or not.

I knew that I shouldn't have bothered mentioning the intoxication legality, that was merely a point to illustrate a concrete example of how the mechanics of the two drugs differ significantly. Though it's a handful of states, not many.
Gab wrote:Just like with alcohol there are varying degrees of intoxication with drugs as well. If I smoke one hit of marijuana I will be much less intoxicated than if I were to take ten hits for example. It's the same principle as alcohol. Alcohol is just as easy to abuse as any illicit drug, and alters one's state of mind. Sounds like a drug to me.


All of that is, frankly, irrelvent. Again, I'm not arguing for/against legalization. I'm saying that comparing them to alcohol, which is far more often than not used with no intent or any noticeable effects of drunkeness, is a bad comparison. That usage does not exist for drugs, no one smokes a joint to not feel something from it. I think it detracts from the much more reasoned arguments, and gets you bogged down in a losing tangent. You end up saying silly stuff like "sounds like a drug to me"... If you are falling back to that, you have no chance.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Brekkie » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:14 pm

degre wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Actually, Mexico has copper mines, huge gas deposits and moderate to large oil deposits that are in the mexican side of the gulf of mexico.

I think the difference is that they don't belong to OPEC.

Which is very different from what Afghanistan has to offer as we are talking about not only gas or oils, but rare minerals such as Uranium, while in the case of Iraq and Libia the thread was purely monetary and could have brought US economy on its knees, as earlier Saddam Hussain wanted to switch from Petrodollar to Euro, being that he had more relationships in Europe, then Gaddafi wanted to do it even worse as he was dealing with other African nations to create a common African currency (Gold Dinar) and trade oil in that currency.
Both moves not only would have switched powers, but would have collapsed the US economy that is based on printing dollars and distribute it around the globe, because if you want to trade oil you are forced to have a dollar reserve, changing the trading value means that everyone would give back their dollars and the green note would be worth less than the paper is printed on.


You are so completely, utterly misinformed regarding everything you referenced in your post that I'm not going to even try to pick it apart because every single thing is factually incorrect.
You need to do some more reading.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fivelives » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:30 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Fivelives wrote:It's easy to think that we could deal with the cartels in the same way we dealt with the mafia at the end of prohibition... but the problem is simple. We can't.

Why not?


Because they're not the same. I don't really know how better to put it than this: if a mafioso gets arrested, they go to trial. If the mafia can't bribe or intimidate the witnesses and/or jurors, or just can't be bothered to, then the mafioso goes to jail. If a cartel member gets arrested, a police station gets blown up just to make a fucking point. Cartels don't give a shit about collateral damage, or killing innocents in simple random acts of violence. How long do you think public servants would be able to last when faced with that kind of brutality? If you're a police officer, and you see a cartel member breaking the law, you have to think to yourself "If I arrest that person, not just me, but everyone I know is going to die because of it".

That's why we can't deal with the cartels the same way we deal with the mafia.

Oh, and a gray market isn't what you were thinking of. If we legalize and regulate the sale of drugs, but people still buy from the cartels, that's a gray market. The product is legal, but the distribution channel isn't.

If selling/growing/transport/using is legal, why would people buy from the cartels? Most consumers would buy it from the local pharmacy, I'd expect, just as they can with liquor or cigarettes, and you can bet that Costco and Walmart would have it by the case, too, at some point. Where would CVS, Safeway, Vons, etc be buying it from? (I presume that Walmart would buy from Whoever, but perhaps I'm libeling them too much.)[/quote]

It's competition. Cartels drive out all other competitors in their area of operations. If they were to move into the US in force, they wouldn't just price their competitors out of business, like Walmart does, they'd just kill them. And just like above, how long do you think the competition would last if they had to hide from the cartels?

Moreover, the people who DO grow such things (or might) are likely somewhat disposted to want to participate in the organic food movement, so you'll see shops carrying Certified Organic (or something) pot, and I imagine that the oversight necessary for that would make it harder to be involved w/ the cartels.


Now you're just stretching.

Of course, there's not much to stop the cartels from showing up at your doors with some machetes, but on the other hand, I'd not be surprised if the DEA were to watch now-legal growers somewhat carefully in hopes of uncovering such cartel involvement. Basically, if the growers can avoid being intimidated, I expect that the market will support them more than it does imported stuff. No grocery chain will buy heavily tariffed imported stuff when they can get local stuff cheaper, and they won't risk buying smuggled stuff (IMO).


See above for reasons why we can't handle the cartels.

Americans have become pussies, for the most part. We like to think that we have the guts and grit to deal with shit like this, but look at our complete and utter overreaction to 9/11. That puts the lie to that belief. I tell you what - if you're so absolutely determined that we can handle the cartels, go move to a non-tourist destination in Mexico for, let's say, 6 months. Then come back, if you still feel the same way, I'll concede the point.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:13 pm

Brekkie wrote:
degre wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Actually, Mexico has copper mines, huge gas deposits and moderate to large oil deposits that are in the mexican side of the gulf of mexico.

I think the difference is that they don't belong to OPEC.

Which is very different from what Afghanistan has to offer as we are talking about not only gas or oils, but rare minerals such as Uranium, while in the case of Iraq and Libia the thread was purely monetary and could have brought US economy on its knees, as earlier Saddam Hussain wanted to switch from Petrodollar to Euro, being that he had more relationships in Europe, then Gaddafi wanted to do it even worse as he was dealing with other African nations to create a common African currency (Gold Dinar) and trade oil in that currency.
Both moves not only would have switched powers, but would have collapsed the US economy that is based on printing dollars and distribute it around the globe, because if you want to trade oil you are forced to have a dollar reserve, changing the trading value means that everyone would give back their dollars and the green note would be worth less than the paper is printed on.


You are so completely, utterly misinformed regarding everything you referenced in your post that I'm not going to even try to pick it apart because every single thing is factually incorrect.
You need to do some more reading.

Easy saying that I'm wrong on every point, telling me that I need to do some reading and dismissing me like that without anything that could prove the contrary.

Especially on the Iraqi invasion is a fact that the September report was completely exaggerated and based on fabricated proofs, hence the WMD story has always been a lie, an excuse upon which was based the illegal invasion of a country.

Now, if you hold true that the US is in Afghanista pure for a war against drugs, why is not the US aiding the Mexican government in a war against the cartel? Isn't maybe more important to deal with matters that are directly affecting the US as the cartels have established into US itself with bases all across the country?
And why is not the US invading maybe Colombia and stop the cartels there? Oh wait, they went to Sudamerica, they were busy supporting that great man that was Pinochet and killing socialists.

But I bet I'm incorrect on this one too and should do more reading :lol:
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:51 pm

Fivelives wrote:Americans have become pussies, for the most part. We like to think that we have the guts and grit to deal with shit like this, but look at our complete and utter overreaction to 9/11. That puts the lie to that belief. I tell you what - if you're so absolutely determined that we can handle the cartels, go move to a non-tourist destination in Mexico for, let's say, 6 months. Then come back, if you still feel the same way, I'll concede the point.

Well I frequently question our intestinal fortitude too, but I don't think the cartels have near the force to pull that off a lot of what you are suggesting, and they'd need to do pretty much all of it to succeed. They may gain pockets here and there, but they'd constantly be fighting a losing battle.
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