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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:23 pm

Our members have made a total of 202,175 posts in 13,260 threads.
We currently have 3,739 members registered.
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The most users online at one time was 145 on 08-14-2011 at 10:44 PM

I'm not sure how many active users we have, because I don't think I can see all the forums. You have the general forums that everyone can see, then you have the Stormrage guild forums, and the Terenas guild forums, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple more forums that I don't have access to, because I'm not a member of those "communities" of players.

The "feather in the cap" to the lounge, and a lot of its Diablo player base, is that there is a link to our forums on Blizzard’s credits page for the Arreat Summit, the only link to any community forums on that page.

But enough talk of my guild, and our forums... that is detracting from the talk about the raid locks, and why some of us love it, and some of us are indifferent, and some of us feel like we just got a mandated day of overtime at work.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:20 pm

Shoju wrote:This is why I said that my post specifically stated that it wasn't directed at anyone specific. A sentence from your post got me thinking, that's it. I'm not saying you ever did say that.

Yeah, I understand, I just wanted to clarify that I'm with you on the 10 vs. 25 disparity, and the problems inherent with each. I raid both 25's and 10's (on an alt), so I see both sides of it, and I sympathize with many of the 10-man raiders' concerns.

I know that what I'm about to say has been beaten to death over and over. Blizzard loves that players like you, and players like me both play the game. This is a change that benefits people like me, and drives people who are trying to be more competitive (like you) absolutely crazy. They can't please both of us. This decision, pleases people like me. I'm fairly confident that they will be making, (I know that they already have) made decisions that are more in line with your desires.

The point to me, is that you are putting this pressure on yourself. Blizzard isn't. Blizzard isn't making you use both locks. they aren't making you use any more locks. You are putting that pressure on yourself, because you feel you wont be able to stay competitive. Maybe you wont. But that isn't Blizzard's fault either way. They are trying like hell to please people, and no one is happy.

I'm sure they want to please the most people possible, but I don't think this change will accomplish that. I don't think there's an obvious problem with one-week lockouts as they are. Will dropping it to 3-4 days be more flexible? Yes. So would dropping it to 1 day. I don't think either is good for the game, in the long run. I think the LFR implementation is spot-on for providing that sort of flexibility. Even I plan on running alts through LFR when I have a block of time and nothing else planned, so it's certainly not something that's good players should be ashamed to partake in.

In any event, whether I put the pressure on myself or not, the net change is that it severely impacts my ability to stay competitive. I know that if I lose the competitive aspect, I'm less likely to log on regularly, and will eventually tire of the game and move on. It'll be the same way for a large number of players in a large number of raiding guilds. So it's a legitimate question to discuss - will the number of raiders that become dissatisfied and quit be enough to counterbalance the number of raiders for whom the added flexibility kept them from quitting? My guess is that the former category is much larger.

I guess I didn't realize that I wasn't a good player. Maybe that's more of a jab than it should be. And for that I apologize.


Let me clarify this statement. There are a lot of players who desire to raid competitively, but simply can't. They stand in fire, they miss cues, they perform at a lower level than is necessary to kill bosses efficiently. Where you set the bar varies from guild to guild; in my old guild, the bar was relatively low, because we were always a fairly social guild and didn't require top-notch performance from our players. Some of them were great people to have around, but just weren't capable of the level of performance required to clear hard modes. In Cadenza, the bar is higher, because we only have two nights in which to clear the content. So every mistake matters. And we're only world 500 for 25-man, the bar gets higher and higher when you get to the more serious guilds.

I'm not saying that you or anyone else on this forum is incapable of playing at one of those levels. You might very well have the talent, but lack the desire. That's fine too. Hell, I don't think I could play at Method or Edge levels, despite Meloree constantly reassuring me that he's not actually Superman. But it's tough to find players with both right now, which is what makes recruiting difficult. Shorter raid lockouts will only exacerbate that problem for guilds who care about progression but still want to raid fewer nights per week.


Because you are right. We raid to play together. We don't play together to raid. I would cancel a month of raiding before I played with someone I didn't want to, simply so that I could raid.

To be fair, I don't hate any of the players I raid with. They're all interesting people. And I have a healthy respect for their ability as players. But we tend to attract a very specific "type," so there's very little drama in my guild. But it's definitely not as social as other guilds; there's a small subgroup of us that log on almost every night, but otherwise guild chat is pretty barren. That's not everyone's cup of tea (not even mine, in fact), but it was something I was willing to give up for more efficient raiding.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:24 pm

Shoju wrote:The "feather in the cap" to the lounge, and a lot of its Diablo player base, is that there is a link to our forums on Blizzard’s credits page for the Arreat Summit, the only link to any community forums on that page.

In my D2 days (which were many), I went to the Lurker Lounge for theorycrafting purposes. I don't think I ever posted though - I thought I had an account, but it looks like it's not on the member list, so either it got purged or I only lurked. But I do remember it as a very active and vibrant community back in the day.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:30 pm

Well LFR has a potentially grindy (probably worse for more people than not) affect as well, but with different benefits than an extra lockout. It doesn't provide the flexibility that a second lockout would.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Passionario » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:05 pm

theckhd wrote:As I said earlier, current-tier raiding is the skill check portion of the game. For another analogy, Firelands is the starcraft ladder. For a non-farmville game to survive, it needs those sorts of skill checks. Otherwise, it turns into Farmville.

Remember how much you complain about players in LFD that play horribly? Those are the ones who never ran into a skill check that forced them to think about improving their play. Given how much you, and several other proponents of this change, complain in the frustrations thread about bad pugs, you should give some thought to what exactly you're doing for those people by supporting twice-weekly raid locks. You're creating even more players who think they can gear out of fire rather than move out of it.

Yeah, but for a non-Dwarf_Fortress game to survive, it needs to place those sorts of skill checks very, very carefully. Otherwise, it turns into I Wanna Be The Guy.

Those players from LFD? They did, in fact, run into a skill check that couldn't be overpowered through gear; namely, pre-nerf Cataclysm heroics. However, instead of forcing them to think about improving their play, it forced them to either quit the game outright or try to bruteforce the system by queuing again and again, resulting in hundreds of thousands of canceled subscriptions and an LFD system that was turned into a toxic hell of miserable failure.

So yeah, a complex and diverse game like WoW does need skill check portions that can't be outgeared (just like it needs grindy portions that can't be outskilled, or luck-based elements that require neither skill nor grinding). However, for the vast majority of the content (including, I feel, normal mode raiding), it is best to allow multiple possible paths to success. Let players decide whether they want to beat the encounter through skill, gear, economical superiority, strength of numbers, class stacking, or anything else.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Kelaan » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:24 pm

Shoju wrote:
It's more or less impossible to recruit good players right now if you're not 6/7H

I guess I didn't realize that I wasn't a good player. Maybe that's more of a jab than it should be.... I guess what my point is, "good players" is also a matter of perspective. I just picked up the single greatest disc priest I have ever had the pleasure of raiding with this past week. Even if I'm not a good player, I know that they are.

I think Theck's point (and one I generally agree with) is that your guild's progress tends to correlate strongly with your ability to recruit and keep good players. There will always be players like you or me who are pretty good, and happy to stay in a more casual-schedule guild, but I know I have seen several very-good players hop ship to a guild with better progression (due to more/longer raid nights, better raid members, etc) in the past two expansions. We usually lose 1-3 people per expansion for that, and often times they're the ones who are "carrying" the rest of us, comparatively.

The people who are most likely to really work hard at maximizing their potential and performance (no matter the class or role) are often the ones most likely to hop ship to a "better" raid team, to chafe at the idea that we only raid two times a week instead of four, etc. They're often the ones who play every night, do PUG raids (or alt raids) on non-official-raid nights, and have a stable of alts who are geared enough for progression raiding. They're the ones who do 25k instead of 15k damage, or could double (or single) heal non-heroic boss fights.

We have a few people like that in my guild's raid team right now. If I didn't have kids and a marriage, I'd likely want to be one of them too. (caveat: assuming I had the skill? :D)

There's a much smaller niche for finding a raid team that is full of skilled people, but only raids a few (2?) nights a week, AND starts after my kids are in bed, AND ends at/before midnight. Almost every "progressed" team either starts earlier, raids much more, or stays up later. Most of the players, though, seem willing to do that, which is why most of the really skilled and motivated players seem to gravitate that direction.

I really like what you said (Shoju) about there being two groups of people to please (or more); I'm in a similar one as you. I like progress, but I've been very happy to raid or play on a low-impact schedule with people that are my friends. (Every time you describe Lurkers, I think, "man, I wish I had more people to play with like that")
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:51 pm

I'm in a situation similar to you, and I'm in the pacific time zone, so I can't take advantage of timezone shifting. There were literally like 10 guilds in all of the US servers on my schedule, based on looking at the server progress threads back when those were reasonably accurate.

The point is that we all have to find that balance of a guild that's fun enough to be in, and certainly that includes success, and allows for a proper wow/life balance. Considering that the scheduling variance across 10 million people is astronomical, having multiple options can be helpful.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Kerriodos » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:56 pm

Courtesy of Anafielle via Twitter: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=16#307

Zarhym wrote:Just to follow up on this, we currently have no plans to have shorter locks in any region for patches beyond 4.2. We think Raid Finder will be a great way to provide interested players with the opportunity to do a second raid per week.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:13 pm

Kerriodos wrote:Courtesy of Anafielle via Twitter: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=16#307

Zarhym wrote:Just to follow up on this, we currently have no plans to have shorter locks in any region for patches beyond 4.2. We think Raid Finder will be a great way to provide interested players with the opportunity to do a second raid per week.


And thus ends the argument, and also means that we probably won't see LFR for T12 or T11 content either. But, I'll bet that they'll do this for T13 when it's reached the aging level that T12 is currently at.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:54 pm

T12 is only "aging" because it was nerfed so hard that everyone is full clearing it in 1 day. It's a sad state of affairs when people are clamoring for more than one lockout per week because they want to play 2 nights instead of 1.

I'm satisfied that they won't blow it with T13, but this still spells doom for Tarecgosa's Rest. Have fun either farming twice as much for the same speed of quest progress, or watching every caster on the server get a legendary by 5.0... I suppose they could impose a weekly cap on each phase, but that gets into 10/25 dynamics that will be just as ugly.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby gtechman » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:17 am

Forgot about the Legendary. I thought they said they didn't want it to be so easily atainable? Now they would just double the speed for it.

I remember Lurkers from D2 myself. Are you guys gonna be big for D3? I would assume so. Looking forward to some of that if so.

My guild right now fits what you look for Kelaan. We raid from 9pm to midnight in my time zone. With kids and a life outside of WoW, it's really the only way I can raid. Our server is dying though and we can't get enough to raid. We still press on with 25 man raids. I really don't know how this lockout change would affect us. I think we would feel the pressure but I can't see requiring folks to raid the same instance twice a week unless they just wanted to. I could see doing a 25 man and then have folks break off and to 10s after the mid week set.

Again, as I posted earlier, I don't think Blizzard has plans for this shift for new content.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:30 am

Based on the latest blue post about it, it sounds like they're just exploring this as an option to stand in for LFR content on the tiers that don't have it. Since MoP will have LFR on every raid, it probably won't continue past Cataclysm.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Shoju » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:38 am

theckhd wrote:Yeah, I understand, I just wanted to clarify that I'm with you on the 10 vs. 25 disparity, and the problems inherent with each. I raid both 25's and 10's (on an alt), so I see both sides of it, and I sympathize with many of the 10-man raiders' concerns.

I'm sure they want to please the most people possible, but I don't think this change will accomplish that. I don't think there's an obvious problem with one-week lockouts as they are. Will dropping it to 3-4 days be more flexible? Yes. So would dropping it to 1 day. I don't think either is good for the game, in the long run. I think the LFR implementation is spot-on for providing that sort of flexibility. Even I plan on running alts through LFR when I have a block of time and nothing else planned, so it's certainly not something that's good players should be ashamed to partake in.

In any event, whether I put the pressure on myself or not, the net change is that it severely impacts my ability to stay competitive. I know that if I lose the competitive aspect, I'm less likely to log on regularly, and will eventually tire of the game and move on. It'll be the same way for a large number of players in a large number of raiding guilds. So it's a legitimate question to discuss - will the number of raiders that become dissatisfied and quit be enough to counterbalance the number of raiders for whom the added flexibility kept them from quitting? My guess is that the former category is much larger.

Let me clarify this statement. There are a lot of players who desire to raid competitively, but simply can't. They stand in fire, they miss cues, they perform at a lower level than is necessary to kill bosses efficiently. Where you set the bar varies from guild to guild; in my old guild, the bar was relatively low, because we were always a fairly social guild and didn't require top-notch performance from our players. Some of them were great people to have around, but just weren't capable of the level of performance required to clear hard modes. In Cadenza, the bar is higher, because we only have two nights in which to clear the content. So every mistake matters. And we're only world 500 for 25-man, the bar gets higher and higher when you get to the more serious guilds.

I'm not saying that you or anyone else on this forum is incapable of playing at one of those levels. You might very well have the talent, but lack the desire. That's fine too. Hell, I don't think I could play at Method or Edge levels, despite Meloree constantly reassuring me that he's not actually Superman. But it's tough to find players with both right now, which is what makes recruiting difficult. Shorter raid lockouts will only exacerbate that problem for guilds who care about progression but still want to raid fewer nights per week.

To be fair, I don't hate any of the players I raid with. They're all interesting people. And I have a healthy respect for their ability as players. But we tend to attract a very specific "type," so there's very little drama in my guild. But it's definitely not as social as other guilds; there's a small subgroup of us that log on almost every night, but otherwise guild chat is pretty barren. That's not everyone's cup of tea (not even mine, in fact), but it was something I was willing to give up for more efficient raiding.


I'm glad that you can see it. I know that I'm a more 'dramatic' / 'emotional' type poster than you. I post my opinions, my emotions about something, sometimes before I really filter it out, and breathe. Its the way I am. I'm glad that you (who I would say seems like a more measured poster) can see it. IRL? I'm an opinionated person who will tell you what I think, and give you my opinion, often unfiltered. Its the reason people love me, and its the reason people hate me.

And see, the LFR is a change in your favor. Blizzard could put 10k gold in a chest at the end for every raider in the run, and I still wouldn't use the LFR. I don't raid 25's (Its just too many people for me) And I'm certainly not going to PuG with 24 other people. The content will be

a) ridiculously easy to make sure that the RDF population can run it,

or

b) it is going to be pugging all over again at the beginning of cataclysm heroics.

Neither of those scenarios interest me very much. Especially, when there won't be bosses like Venoxis, Lynx, and Daakara that if your raid team fails at, I can finish them off on my own. (Soloing Halazzi was incredibly fun... I wish I would have been able to get a vid of it.)

I think we will end up disagreeing about the size of those two groups you describe, but I agree with your point. I just don't necessarily agree with the number of people who will quit over it.

I agree with you assessment. I know that we have players in <Lurkers> who could make the cut in better guilds, but don't have the time. I don't know "how competitive", but I know that we have several players who "moonlight" in our guild, while being part of a 6/7H guild as well. They have all assured me that if I had the time, they would love for me to tank for them. It makes me wonder sometimes... Because I think that I make some incredibly boneheaded decisions sometimes. For me, it really is a lack of desire. I don't want to feel like I "NEED" to log on to raid. Yes, I raid every wednesday. But I do so because I want to. I want to go kill things. This week, I haven't even bothered to log several days to get my AH winnings and toss more up. I would hate to be in a position where I felt like I needed to log on.

And I'm glad that you feel that way. After reading some of the "competitive guild problems" that come up in the frustrations threads about people in guilds I couldn't imagine that. If people that Lieris had mentioned a month or so ago were in <lurkers>, and pulled that crap? They would have been gone, immediately, The frustration post would have been "Had to kick people for being overtly racist, and offensive." Instead of "I can't believe these people posted that." (just using the Lieris example because it was the only one I could remember the name of the poster from)

That's not to say that we haven't had drama in Lurkers. We have. And at times, we still do have drama. But when I hear people mention that there are people in their guild they can't stand, I am baffled by their choice to remain in that guild. For me, enjoyment of the game isn't in the purple pixels that drop from the dead internet dragon. Those certainly do help, but for me, the people that helped me slay the internet dragon are more important than the digital treasures, or the people that I 'beat' to the kill.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Zobel » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:16 pm

Only Taiwan and Korea (not North America or Europe):

Bashiok wrote:The twice-weekly lockouts we recently implemented in Taiwan and Korea for 4.2 raid content is not something we’ll be applying to NA or EU realms. This was a test for us to see how it could affect raid participation by changing the lockout system of older raids. With the release of 4.3, the Raid Finder feature will allow everyone to go for additional attempts at loot drops. We’re very excited about the Raid Finder and will be closely monitoring it and how people use it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=19#364
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Worldie » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:39 am

That just proves I was right from the start \o/
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