Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:26 am

One negative aspect of having two lockouts per week is that it shortens the lifetime of the content. If people are able to farm twice a week, they'll gear up much faster and then just be sitting around bored that much quicker. This is the primary reason why I don't expect Blizzard to do two lockouts per week for current content. They need the content to last for a certain length of time. That means not nerfing it until they decide it's time to push guilds forward. That also means not shooting themselves in the foot right off the bat by allowing raids to do two farm clears per week.

I know we're having an interesting theoretical debate here, but there's basically no way they are going to apply this to Dragon Soul right off the bat. It's similar in principle to nerfing the content while it's still current. They might do it 3 months after the tier has been released, but they're not going to do an initial release with doubled lockouts.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:27 am

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:We killed plenty of heroic bosses too, but we still only raided maybe 6 hours a week. We would not have raided one second more with this change, but we would have had a choice to get more practice for a boss or get more gear. That's a good...no GREAT strategic option. We also would have been able to change things up schedule wise, so that folks that could only come on certain days would have seen more bosses, another incredibly great option for us to help keep attendance and interest in the game up. The additional choice for us would have been incredibly meaningful.

I'm not discounting competition, I'm saying that time is a major factor to the pace of progression and by the time you are beyond the top tier of guilds it's already capped, the choice towards time off has already been made in spite of competition.


I'd argue that by taking that option - by choosing the "get more gear" option - you might even be shooting yourself in the foot, at least as far as progression. Especially for few-night-a-week guilds, time spent learning new bosses is critical. It's by far the second-biggest factor in progression (after skill).
I would tend to agree that practice is far more important than gear, that however, is not your choice to make. Only my guild is capable of making that decision for a given encounter, and surely it's not hard to imagine scenarios where that would be a better choice, even if it did actually delay progression.

Theck wrote:But regardless, the point is this: that option might appeal to your guild or others. But it also sets up a situation where the guilds who do care about competition, of which there are many more than you seem to admit to, feel pressured to increase their hours per week raiding. When that difference only nets you a small increase in progression, such as killing a new boss one week slower, then that's often an acceptable trade-off. When it's the difference between getting twice as much loot and progressing significantly faster, the stakes are much, much higher. It's not fair to compare the reasoning for raiding 2 nights a week in the current environment to what it would be if raid lockouts were twice per week. The risk/reward ratio is much different. And again, for players like me, who could meet the time requirements but would rather do something else (or raid the same content on a different character for variety), it's not appealing.
I'm not discounting competition, I'm saying it's obviously not the driving factor for nearly every guild. Of course it matters, even casual guilds tend to know where they rank on their server/faction/world etc, but it's also cast in the context of playtime. Top 100 guilds clearing content even faster is meaningless to me. This concept of a "gap" is equally meaningless.

Theck wrote:Nonetheless, I think the pacing issue is a bigger factor than any of this. Blizzard would be pretty stupid to implement this for current-tier raids, because people will chew through the content faster and be clamoring for new content sooner. They simply can't keep up with that development schedule without doubling their encounter/raid-designing manpower. And in turn, it would shorten the loot accumulation time by about half, making gearing up and "saturating" a tier of content much faster. That, I think, is the biggest detrimental effect on the game that such a change would have, and that's why I'm certain the announcement will only apply to previous raid tiers.
It's possible, but that only happens if most guilds take the reset each week and spends enough time to double up their gear. I'm pretty skeptical of both. Besides, you just commented on how practice is more important than gear anyhow. Now, I realize of course that this will mean content is churned through faster, but by how much? I'm not sure it's a huge amount, but if it means that content becomes stale because Blizzard can't keep up in a reasonable way, then yes it's a bad idea.


Theck wrote:I'm not telling them what's in their best interest. I'm saying that this is a game, which has levels of difficulty (heroic, normal, LFR) and expectations that go along with those levels of difficulty. Are they somewhat arbitrary? Perhaps, but that's sort of the point; the raiding game has always had a little bit of "you must be this tall to clear this content" involved in it.

The only part of this game that seriously emphasizes player skill is normal and heroic raiding (and arguably the solo parts of the legendary quest). The fact that there is a skill-based assessment is important, because it drives a significant portion of the raiding population. Having the option to clear twice for double the loot instead of working on heroic modes may be convenient, but it serves to subvert that test of skill by outgearing the content. And it also has a negative effect on a large portion (I'd argue the majority) of the players who are attempting that test of skill.

Consider a case study. If you're clearing normal modes, and you have no interest in heroics, then why are you raiding? You're not doing it for the challenge, presumably, as a heroic raider would be, otherwise you'd be attempting heroic modes instead of doing a second normal clear. So you're either interested in loot, in which case this change must seem wonderful because you get shinies even faster, or you're interested in playing with a group of friends.

If you're interested in loot, well, that's fine, but I think that getting too much loot too fast will definitely kill the game for you. It's the classic game design (or behavioral psychology) problem of effort vs. reward. If the rewards come too quickly or regularly, you get desensitized. It's the same reason you can't hit 85 and purchase a full set of 378 gear within a day's worth of work. There needs to be some feeling of having earned that gear, or some amount of time investment in accumulating it, to make it feel meaningful. Being able to farm the latest tier of gear twice a week helps trivialize that, and will cause players to burn out or get bored between tiers faster (and potentially un-sub for short periods of time, again, bad for the game).

If you're interested in playing with a group of friends, then why in the hell must it be Firelands twice a week? If you're able to clear Firelands in one night, and not at all interested in heroic T12, there are plenty of other raids you could work on. Many of the T11 bosses are as difficult as the early T12 bosses, and some of the T11 heroics are easier than T12 normal bosses nowadays. There are even some T11H items that are still best-in-slot, for those that still have loot as a secondary motivation for their raid team.

So I guess that's my point: I don't see how many guilds would benefit from this choice. There may be a few guilds who get a slight advantage by being able to clear twice and exploit gear scaling to subvert the only remaining skill check in the game. But for the most part, all it will do is widen the gap between guilds who have more time to play and guilds who don't, and make raiding on a "time budget" more stressful.
A few things, PVP is really the only thing that really emphasizes player skill. By denying them the choice, on the grounds that they'll burnout, you kind of are...

I raided for all of the above really. I wanted to see the new content, to be challenged, and to hang out with friends all at the same time. LFR (presumably) or previous tier battles don't pose enough of a challenge (and how do you run the previous tier when it's a new expac?). When we beat normal mode we continued to heroic, and there are new shinies to be had in heroic modes too, so if resetting to merely get rewards for the sake of getting them is the option, we probably wouldn't take it, unless it was a special circumstance. There's not a lot of guilds that are completely farming all heroic bosses for very long, so the content isn't wearing out.

Again, I think the gap is a specious argument unless you fall in that small range of folks trying to compete with the top tier and are not raiding very often, and admittedly for those folks it may cause some problems, but I think that all shakes out, much like the 40 to 25 man raid size change, and things progress from there with new significant benefits for plenty of guilds.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:30 am

Shoju wrote:I guess I can't see why it matters to you, or to anyone else if another of the top 20,000 guilds in the game decide that they want to farm and outgear versus do it your way. Why does it matter if they are taught something? Why does it matter if they decide to do it one way, and you decide to continue doing the same type of lockout structure that we have right now?

As I said earlier, current-tier raiding is the skill check portion of the game. For another analogy, Firelands is the starcraft ladder. For a non-farmville game to survive, it needs those sorts of skill checks. Otherwise, it turns into Farmville.

Remember how much you complain about players in LFD that play horribly? Those are the ones who never ran into a skill check that forced them to think about improving their play. Given how much you, and several other proponents of this change, complain in the frustrations thread about bad pugs, you should give some thought to what exactly you're doing for those people by supporting twice-weekly raid locks. You're creating even more players who think they can gear out of fire rather than move out of it.

Shoju wrote:Why is this such a big deal to people? When 10m raiders screamed at the heavens at the unfair gearing imbalance between 10 and 25 in wotlk, 25's told 10's that it was a 10's problem, and not a 25's problem. Even now, with 10m suffering horridly at the hands of loot distribution, 25m players tell them, it's part of being a 10m guild.

For starters, I never said that in Wrath. I always thought it was stupid that 10's got lower-tier gear. My objection was that I felt obligated to run both 10- and 25- to maximize Theck, and in fact I did just that. I got to play and raid on alts a lot less in Wrath as a result. I would rather have been clearing ICC on three or four alts, as time permitted, than have to commit to a second ICC raid on 10-man every week.

I'm also sympathetic to your loot distribution problems in 10-man, and I think they could do better. My objection to shorter raid locks has has nothing to do with 10 vs. 25.

Shoju wrote:This is the same type of thing. If that guild has the time and resources to run 2 locks a week with the same raiders instead of 2 locks a week, 1 with mains, 1 with alts, who cares? Why does it matter to you? What does that do to impact your play experience? This is a video game. It isn't the olympics. It isn't a professional sport. Hell, "professional" WoW players don't make enough money to sit at home and do nothing else. they get hardware, and some swag.

It impacts my play experience by making the game less fun and more like work. Simple as that. I have committed to raiding with a team of players, which is no different than committing to a sports team. In doing so, I have agreed to max my character as much as possible, within reasonable bounds, to help progression. I expect every other member of the raid team is doing the same.

That means that, if this option arises, I take advantage of it. Not because I can't control my own primal raiding urges, but because I feel like I'm letting down 24 other players if I slack off on that commitment. That's an incredibly large psychological factor that can't be discounted.

What I like about the current method is that with higher skill, you can do more with less time commitment. I might be able to clear content in 2 nights, leaving me more nights to do other things. Another guild might take 3 or 4 nights to clear the same amount of content. But at the end of the raid lock, we both accumulated the same amount of gear; the playing field is still fairly even, and neither of us feel like we're significantly lagging the other in progression.

Swap that to twice-weekly resets, and now the 3- or 4-night guild has a significant gear advantage unless I step up my play time. That's disheartening, because I like things the way they are. I like that I have the option to raid on alts or take a night off to spend with family, if I want to, without affecting Theck's progression. That lets me spend more time in the game doing what I want to do, rather than what I feel I should do. If I want to raid more, I can do it on an alt, or join a pug raid from a previous tier, or whatever. If I want to go farm transmog gear, or do BG's/Arenas (stop laughing, those of you who know me), or level an alt, I have time to do that.

Basically, the competitive streak in me and my commitment to my guild ensure that if we can clear Firelands twice a week, I will. That leaves me less time to do the other things in-game that I'd like to do, or else go back on that commitment to my guild. That is what irritates me about the change. It adds no flexibility that I will be able to take advantage of, and compels me to spend more of my limited time in-game doing the same activity on the same character.

Shoju wrote:I don't know. Maybe because I can see my "end time" with the game, I have a different perspective now. I just don't understand why this is such a big damn deal. If you don't want the "extra" lock, then you just don't bother. If you aren't competing for server or world first does it really matter if that other guild that is 2/7 or 3/7 or 4/7 or whatever out of whatever is running more locks than you are?

To give you some perspective, yes, it really does. It's more or less impossible to recruit good players right now if you're not 6/7H. This isn't an issue for my guild, partly because we don't really recruit, but it's devastating to my old guild, which is now looking to transfer servers in the hopes that a larger population of skilled players will let them fill out and work back up to their former glory.

That competition even takes place between guilds that aren't at the very top end. People take pride in their performance, and still strive to beat their "arch-rival" to 4/7H, even if the top guild on the server already cleared heroic Rag. I've seen the lack of that competition kill guilds in the past as well, because they languished without anyone to challenge (a concern for my guild now, in fact - all of the other comparable guilds have transferred or are horde-side). Friendly competition helps a game, and a team, thrive.

Shoju wrote:Look at this as a challenge to say "I'm still competitive, and we only do 1 raid lock a week" instead of "BUT BUT BUT!!!! THEY CAN RUN MORE THAN WE CAN NOW!"

This is still the single best change to raiding for my guild that has been announced since 4.0. Hands down. Not even a competition.

This comes back to a point I made earlier. I consider Lurkers an anomaly, because you approach the game with a very different attitude from the vast majority of guilds. You guys flat-out work within a fixed set of casual play parameters, and raid within that framework. One way to put that is that you raid to play together, rather than play together to raid. You also have a very fluid roster with a lot of uncertainty from raid night to raid night. And I have no doubt that this sort of change is great for that environment, because "how are we doing" is the last thing Lurkers cares about. That's admirable, and I understand why you like it.

But.

I return to my earlier point. You don't care about progression/competition, so the advantage you get by clearing Firelands twice a week is social - you can tank both runs on Shoju, for example, or maybe get a full normal-mode clear since you have to miss the second night. Those are perfectly within your grasp now, if your guild cared enough to skip heroic progression for one week to let you get a Rag kill in. You could easily go back on the second night and work on T11 heroics, or do a transmog gear raid night, or what not. The point is that you're playing for the people, not the progression, and there are already plenty of things to do in the game that you can utilize in that endeavor.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:31 am

Flex wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'd argue that by taking that option - by choosing the "get more gear" option - you might even be shooting yourself in the foot, at least as far as progression. Especially for few-night-a-week guilds, time spent learning new bosses is critical. It's by far the second-biggest factor in progression (after skill).


There's a few different types of people who raid. Those who raid casually for the experience and aren't concerned with either loot or progression. Those who raid for loot. Those who raid for progression. Those who raid competitively.


I don't see how this change is going to effect time-on-boss in a significant way, unless you have waves and waves of trash to clear. Firelands was a bad design, esp to start, in that aspect, as 80% of the trash was up-front. If you wanted to get gear from Shannox on your second lockout of the week, you had to clear for quite a while to get him to spawn.

Assuming T13, if this change is applied to T13, is not so trash-heavy to start, then the time-on-boss should not be as much of an issue. It will allow you to repeat and refine strats, and move on to the next challenge. The gear is a plus.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:32 am

Kihra wrote:One negative aspect of having two lockouts per week is that it shortens the lifetime of the content. If people are able to farm twice a week, they'll gear up much faster and then just be sitting around bored that much quicker. This is the primary reason why I don't expect Blizzard to do two lockouts per week for current content. They need the content to last for a certain length of time. That means not nerfing it until they decide it's time to push guilds forward. That also means not shooting themselves in the foot right off the bat by allowing raids to do two farm clears per week.

I know we're having an interesting theoretical debate here, but there's basically no way they are going to apply this to Dragon Soul right off the bat. It's similar in principle to nerfing the content while it's still current. They might do it 3 months after the tier has been released, but they're not going to do an initial release with doubled lockouts.

I agree, and admittedly, I don't have a sense for things in Cataclysm. In WotLK, things seemed to be OK once Ulduar came out. I don't think there were a ton of guilds farming heroic Ulduar or the Colosseum thing before the next tier came out. Heroics were still very much a learning thing for Blizz at that point though, so I'm not sure that holds up to present day.

The whole post naxx wait was terrible, and if that's how it would be, then it's a terrible idea.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:34 am

Kihra wrote:One negative aspect of having two lockouts per week is that it shortens the lifetime of the content.


This is likely the best argument against doing this on a 7-boss tier.

Just thought of something else too. Fringe or B-team players might get hurt in this, especially to start. Players that were included in 2nd team runs with the alts of the main team might be on the bench more, as the a-team will do the reset, leaving the rest to rot on the bench.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby gtechman » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Good arguements for both sides.

Theck's "WoW becoming work" arguement is very valid. I have been there myself. Once the game becomes work long enough, you no longer want to play.

If Blizzard truely is concerned about the average raider then they wouldn't look at the real hard core or the real casual. They would center on the group in the middle. That group in my opinion would feel the need to up their raiding time. Look at it like the Fireland dailys...you did them...but you felt you had to. It wasn't fun. It was just a daily part of the game you had to get out of the way.

I think this is going to be a moot point because I just can't see Blizz doing this for current content.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:06 pm

gtechman wrote:Look at it like the Fireland dailys...you did them...but you felt you had to.


I did them because I wanted to do them and I had some fun doing them...
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Teranoid » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:09 pm

gtechman wrote: Look at it like the Fireland dailys...you did them...but you felt you had to. It wasn't fun. It was just a daily part of the game you had to get out of the way.


Except that anyone who had the ability to do Firelands (see also: anyone who made decent T11 progress) really didn't need to do those dailies at all.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:11 pm

Teranoid wrote:
gtechman wrote: Look at it like the Fireland dailys...you did them...but you felt you had to. It wasn't fun. It was just a daily part of the game you had to get out of the way.


Except that anyone who had the ability to do Firelands (see also: anyone who made decent T11 progress) really didn't need to do those dailies at all.


Unless they were a crafter...
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby sahiel » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:13 pm

Shoju wrote:I don't know. Maybe because I can see my "end time" with the game, I have a different perspective now. I just don't understand why this is such a big damn deal. If you don't want the "extra" lock, then you just don't bother. If you aren't competing for server or world first does it really matter if that other guild that is 2/7 or 3/7 or 4/7 or whatever out of whatever is running more locks than you are?


I'm not sure exactly what sort of guild you're in, so apologies if this comes across wrong but this is absolutely, incredibly, vitally important to a lot of guilds. Whether you're top 100, 1000 or 10000 most guilds need to recruit, many recruits base their choice on which guilds to apply to on their progression. With everyone on the same table of a week reset it gives everyone a chance to recruit equally, doubling the lockout throws that totally out of whack.

As an example, my realm Medivh has only 2 guilds on Horde who are 6/7H, us and our closest competitor who both get kills pretty equally, the other guilds are barely even breaking into heroics and Horde is outnumbered 4:1 by Alliance, so needless to say getting any recruits is a very hard task. We raid 3 nights a week for 3 hours at a time, they raid 5 or 6 nights a week for 4 or 5 hours... given two lockouts we're going to be unable to take much advantage of it whereas they are going to be able to do so easily, suddenly we go from having an equal opportunity to recruit as equal first on Horde to likely dropping to clear second simply due to time, despite the fact we raid a perfectly normal amount.

The situation just becomes even more exaggerated as you drop to lower guilds on my server, they fight for even the average players, let alone great recruits. This change would ensure that the guilds who can raid more than average have an advantage recruiting over the rest, which means they get more players, so they get an advantage over... etc etc. It's a vicious circle. For any guild who cares about progression in some fashion and raids an average amount (and that certainly seems to be an awful lot) this change is going to be the cause of problems they can ill afford.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Staatt » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:31 pm

I relate this to the change to weekly dungeon bonuses rather than daily. The move away from daily LFD to no more than 7 a week was a huge improvement because it allowed you to log on when you had time during the week and bang them out. Feeling like one had to log on every day to have a shot at capping valor was a huge pain. Sure, no one was forcing you to, but you fell behind if you didn't.

This is the same thing in reverse: plenty of players will feel like they need to increase their raiding time to accommodate, and dividing the week will separate players who can play equally often during the week as during the weekend from those who have availability one time or the other.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:43 pm

sahiel wrote:I'm not sure exactly what sort of guild you're in, so apologies if this comes across wrong but this is absolutely, incredibly, vitally important to a lot of guilds. Whether you're top 100, 1000 or 10000 most guilds need to recruit, many recruits base their choice on which guilds to apply to on their progression. With everyone on the same table of a week reset it gives everyone a chance to recruit equally, doubling the lockout throws that totally out of whack.

As an example, my realm Medivh has only 2 guilds on Horde who are 6/7H, us and our closest competitor who both get kills pretty equally, the other guilds are barely even breaking into heroics and Horde is outnumbered 4:1 by Alliance, so needless to say getting any recruits is a very hard task. We raid 3 nights a week for 3 hours at a time, they raid 5 or 6 nights a week for 4 or 5 hours... given two lockouts we're going to be unable to take much advantage of it whereas they are going to be able to do so easily, suddenly we go from having an equal opportunity to recruit as equal first on Horde to likely dropping to clear second simply due to time, despite the fact we raid a perfectly normal amount.

The situation just becomes even more exaggerated as you drop to lower guilds on my server, they fight for even the average players, let alone great recruits. This change would ensure that the guilds who can raid more than average have an advantage recruiting over the rest, which means they get more players, so they get an advantage over... etc etc. It's a vicious circle. For any guild who cares about progression in some fashion and raids an average amount (and that certainly seems to be an awful lot) this change is going to be the cause of problems they can ill afford.

But schedule is every bit as important (usually more so) for a recruit looking for a guild. If I don't want to or can't raid 5 nights a week, I will never give them a look. The end result is that I'm in a guild that's more compatible with my schedule, not my schedule relative to the lockout system.

I'm skeptical that it would make a huge difference in their progression rate anyhow, but no one is suggesting that no guild is going to have issues because of this. So maybe your guild breaks up and your members find a guild that better fits their schedule, in the greater context of the game, that's not really a bad thing.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:58 pm

I just have a couple of things to say really.

For starters, I never said that in Wrath. I always thought it was stupid that 10's got lower-tier gear. My objection was that I felt obligated to run both 10- and 25- to maximize Theck, and in fact I did just that. I got to play and raid on alts a lot less in Wrath as a result. I would rather have been clearing ICC on three or four alts, as time permitted, than have to commit to a second ICC raid on 10-man every week.


This is why I said that my post specifically stated that it wasn't directed at anyone specific. A sentence from your post got me thinking, that's it. I'm not saying you ever did say that. I will go on the record right now, and say that while I'm pretty sure that I irritate you to death at least sometimes, I have a lot of respect for you, and your opinion, and the way you are able to see things from perspectives. I may not always agree with you, but I can certainly respect that you at least attempt to see things from another perspective, instead of just the lens of your own experiences.

It impacts my play experience by making the game less fun and more like work. Simple as that. I have committed to raiding with a team of players, which is no different than committing to a sports team. In doing so, I have agreed to max my character as much as possible, within reasonable bounds, to help progression. I expect every other member of the raid team is doing the same.

That means that, if this option arises, I take advantage of it. Not because I can't control my own primal raiding urges, but because I feel like I'm letting down 24 other players if I slack off on that commitment. That's an incredibly large psychological factor that can't be discounted.

What I like about the current method is that with higher skill, you can do more with less time commitment. I might be able to clear content in 2 nights, leaving me more nights to do other things. Another guild might take 3 or 4 nights to clear the same amount of content. But at the end of the raid lock, we both accumulated the same amount of gear; the playing field is still fairly even, and neither of us feel like we're significantly lagging the other in progression.

Swap that to twice-weekly resets, and now the 3- or 4-night guild has a significant gear advantage unless I step up my play time. That's disheartening, because I like things the way they are. I like that I have the option to raid on alts or take a night off to spend with family, if I want to, without affecting Theck's progression. That lets me spend more time in the game doing what I want to do, rather than what I feel I should do. If I want to raid more, I can do it on an alt, or join a pug raid from a previous tier, or whatever. If I want to go farm transmog gear, or do BG's/Arenas (stop laughing, those of you who know me), or level an alt, I have time to do that.

Basically, the competitive streak in me and my commitment to my guild ensure that if we can clear Firelands twice a week, I will. That leaves me less time to do the other things in-game that I'd like to do, or else go back on that commitment to my guild. That is what irritates me about the change. It adds no flexibility that I will be able to take advantage of, and compels me to spend more of my limited time in-game doing the same activity on the same character.


I know that what I'm about to say has been beaten to death over and over. Blizzard loves that players like you, and players like me both play the game. This is a change that benefits people like me, and drives people who are trying to be more competitive (like you) absolutely crazy. They can't please both of us. This decision, pleases people like me. I'm fairly confident that they will be making, (I know that they already have) made decisions that are more in line with your desires.

The point to me, is that you are putting this pressure on yourself. Blizzard isn't. Blizzard isn't making you use both locks. they aren't making you use any more locks. You are putting that pressure on yourself, because you feel you wont be able to stay competitive. Maybe you wont. But that isn't Blizzard's fault either way. They are trying like hell to please people, and no one is happy.

To give you some perspective, yes, it really does. It's more or less impossible to recruit good players right now if you're not 6/7H. This isn't an issue for my guild, partly because we don't really recruit, but it's devastating to my old guild, which is now looking to transfer servers in the hopes that a larger population of skilled players will let them fill out and work back up to their former glory.


I guess I didn't realize that I wasn't a good player. Maybe that's more of a jab than it should be. And for that I apologize. After writing it, it feels a little more pointed than i wanted. I thought about taking it out of the post, because I have spent quite a bit of time picking and choosing what I want to say, because I didn't read your post before I hit quote. I wanted to read, and make notes and write it on the fly. I guess what my point is, "good players" is also a matter of perspective. I just picked up the single greatest disc priest I have ever had the pleasure of raiding with this past week. Even if I'm not a good player, I know that they are.

This comes back to a point I made earlier. I consider Lurkers an anomaly, because you approach the game with a very different attitude from the vast majority of guilds. You guys flat-out work within a fixed set of casual play parameters, and raid within that framework. One way to put that is that you raid to play together, rather than play together to raid. You also have a very fluid roster with a lot of uncertainty from raid night to raid night. And I have no doubt that this sort of change is great for that environment, because "how are we doing" is the last thing Lurkers cares about. That's admirable, and I understand why you like it.


I should have probably just deleted everything else, and just quoted this, and left it at that. Because this really I think captures where I'm coming from, and is probably the biggest reason that I don't see the big deal. I have worked within a guild for 4 years that has dealt with everything you mentioned, and we have at times, been able to look at ourselves and be INCREDIBLY proud.

We were the only 10m only guild on our server to get OS2d down and have considerable work on OS3d prior to Ulduar being released. We were the best 10m guild on the server in Ulduar. An Alliance guild beat us to Yogg by <24 hours, but we had Fl, XT, Hodir, Thorim, and AoI Hard Modes down along the way. We were (even with all of my grumblings and bitchings to the contrary) the 3rd/4th most progressed horde guild through ICC until the 4.0 changes and people blew through the place.

And we weren't even trying to be.

Because you are right. We raid to play together. We don't play together to raid. I would cancel a month of raiding before I played with someone I didn't want to, simply so that I could raid.


But.

I return to my earlier point. You don't care about progression/competition, so the advantage you get by clearing Firelands twice a week is social - you can tank both runs on Shoju, for example, or maybe get a full normal-mode clear since you have to miss the second night. Those are perfectly within your grasp now, if your guild cared enough to skip heroic progression for one week to let you get a Rag kill in. You could easily go back on the second night and work on T11 heroics, or do a transmog gear raid night, or what not. The point is that you're playing for the people, not the progression, and there are already plenty of things to do in the game that you can utilize in that endeavor.


Good point. It is hard for me to see the drive to play a social video game like wow, and not play it for the people. While I understand that some people on this forum do in fact play for the progression, and deal with and at times suffer through the people they raid with for the progression, I just couldn't bring myself to do that. If 4.3 is released, and I somehow miraculously was part of the world first deathwing heroic kill, it would bring me absolutely no satisfaction to look at the people that I accomplished that with and think to myself "I can't stand that stupid rogue."


As I was previewing this, I see that Sahiel posted this:
I'm not sure exactly what sort of guild you're in, so apologies if this comes across wrong but this is absolutely, incredibly, vitally important to a lot of guilds. Whether you're top 100, 1000 or 10000 most guilds need to recruit, many recruits base their choice on which guilds to apply to on their progression. With everyone on the same table of a week reset it gives everyone a chance to recruit equally, doubling the lockout throws that totally out of whack.


Some of them do, yes. And those recruits aren't long for our guild. Like Theck said, <Lurkers> is really more an anomaly, probably more so than even I give it credit for.

We don't recruit often. Recruits to <Lurkers> who come in, and base their decision because our progression and time frame syncs with their schedules *normally* don't last long. Our guild is far more 'social entity' than a guild. Our Guild forums, http://www.lurkerlounge.com have been home to blizzard game talk since D1. We were a "big deal" during D2. Kind of like "an EJ for D2" so to speak. Our forums, and being part of the <Lurkers> guild is more like being a member of Maintankadin than it is being a member of <Cadenza> or <Method> (no offense intended towards those guilds. I use them as examples, because they are progression guilds. They play together to raid, like Theck said. Nothing more. Don't read anything into it.) . Sometimes, that is a point missed out on by the newer members of the guild, and something I wish I could get them to understand.
Last edited by Shoju on Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 pm

Shoju wrote: Our Guild forums, http://www.lurkerlounge.com have been home to blizzard game talk since D1. We were a "big deal" during D2. Kind of like "an EJ for D2" so to speak. Our forums, and being part of the <Lurkers> guild is more like being a member of Maintankadin than it is being a member of <Cadenza> or <Method>. Sometimes, that is a point missed out on by the newer members of the guild, and something I wish I could get them to understand.


I couldn't quite see the total number of registered accounts on Lurkers forum, but looks to be ~3740. That is many. Have no clue how many are active.
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