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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:37 am

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Theck wrote:Right, but again, that doesn't mean that we should be enthusiastic about doing that process again, especially when there are good arguments that this change is bad for the game in a deeper sense than that short-term turmoil.

But then start making those arguments, all I keep seeing are pretty selfish social arguments that I don't think stand up very well to scrutiny. If there are design issues that make this a bad idea, then that's a whole different ball game.


I don't think the game design aspects of
  • finding the appropriate pacing for tiers of content
  • Psychological impact of an abbreviated raiding schedule when others are gearing up twice as fast (Kysen touched on this)
  • Psychological impact of competing on an "even playing field"
  • Attempting to reward exceptional skill rather than "most time spent raiding"
are selfish arguments. Social, perhaps, but a lot of game design (or at least, MMO design) has roots in social questions.

I sympathize that this might be beneficial to your guild somehow. It's detrimental to a lot more guilds than it helps, in my opinion. In my case, it will make the game feel more like work if I have to clear the latest tier twice a week on Theck instead of once, because those off-night alt raids are enjoyable to me. And when it becomes like work, I'm not likely to "choose" to raid one lockout a week and feel content, I'm likely to quit playing altogether.
I think it's obviously beneficial for far more guilds than it hurts. The group for whom competition is so important that they would sacrifice enjoyment, is the only group this hurts, and yes I do find those bullet points to be mostly selfish. I mean if you think the playing field is even, it's only because you can take better advantage of it than others. They playing field might be even for the top 100 guilds, but what about the top 5000? That seems rather unlikely.

This helps players who want more access now, this helps pretty much any guild that at some point believes a reset is better than extending for whatever reason (and there are countless reasons why that might be). It hurts people who will do something that they don't want to do for some sort of competition, which I believe is a tiny fraction of the player base.

Earlier, you equated this to the concept that adding more DPS skills isn't really adding more choice, because you'll always take the best choice at any moment in time. But that is within a very limited system (the wow combat system) of mechanics. Real life is far more complex, and it's ludicrous to believe that out of 10 million subscribers that a 7 day reset is optimal for nearly all of them. Besides, this doesn't even get rid of the 7 day reset, it just adds an option for a 3/4 day reset.

I just have a real hard time from a social perspective with this notion that not providing individuals their own choice is the better option. That forcing them to a 7 day reset is really what's best for them, as if you could possibly know.

Again, if you want to talk design issues, more along the lines of your first bullet point above, I think that's quite valid.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:49 am

Dantriges wrote:
theckhd wrote:I sympathize that this might be beneficial to your guild somehow.


He isn´t playing WoW. Mentioned it in this thread.

Fridmarr wrote:Whoa, no I'm not doing that at all. I don't even play WoW.


However, several posts ago he said:

Fridmarr wrote:I'm 100% certain the added flexibility this provides would have been beneficial, in a real way, for my guild.


Hence why I said it might be beneficial to "his guild," not "him."
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:10 am

Yeah, all I was getting at is that I have no personal stake in this at all. That I'm not looking at this from a personal perspective, but I use examples from my guild when asked for something more concrete.

When I'm talking about "my guild" (I'm still a member and chat/follow them, I just don't play), I'm just relating the effect it would have had on us, and I believe many other guilds like us. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Theck wrote:I don't think the game design aspects of
  • finding the appropriate pacing for tiers of content
  • Psychological impact of an abbreviated raiding schedule when others are gearing up twice as fast (Kysen touched on this)
  • Psychological impact of competing on an "even playing field"
  • Attempting to reward exceptional skill rather than "most time spent raiding"
are selfish arguments. Social, perhaps, but a lot of game design (or at least, MMO design) has roots in social questions.

I sympathize that this might be beneficial to your guild somehow. It's detrimental to a lot more guilds than it helps, in my opinion. In my case, it will make the game feel more like work if I have to clear the latest tier twice a week on Theck instead of once, because those off-night alt raids are enjoyable to me. And when it becomes like work, I'm not likely to "choose" to raid one lockout a week and feel content, I'm likely to quit playing altogether.
I think it's obviously beneficial for far more guilds than it hurts. The group for whom competition is so important that they would sacrifice enjoyment, is the only group this hurts, and yes I do find those bullet points to be mostly selfish. I mean if you think the playing field is even, it's only because you can take better advantage of it than others. They playing field might be even for the top 100 guilds, but what about the top 5000? That seems rather unlikely.


I'd argue that it's not. There are over 8000 guilds that are 6/7H, according to wowprogress. Over 10000 are 4/7H. In fact, at least 20000 guilds have killed at least one heroic mode. So the "playing field" matters to a hell of a lot more than the top 100. Again, it affects the top 100 least - they're just farming gear right now, and otherwise taking a break until new content. 10000+ of those guilds in the middle are still progressing through content, and will be faced with the "clear again on normal or work on hard modes" choice.

Competition is a real factor for a lot of those guilds. Not that they expect to compete with Method or Paragon, but they do compete with other guilds in their same progression category. That sort of competition is healthy for the game, because it keeps players interested. They feel compelled to try harder and play better than when there's nobody to compare to.

What you're essentially saying is that nobody cares about the competitive aspect, even the light competition between guilds that are only clearing their first few heroic bosses. I think that's dead wrong. It's still a factor, even if it's not the only thing that brings them back to raid every week. It's also not fair to dismiss it as unimportant to the raiding scene, because it's definitely important to the majority of those 20000 guilds.

Fridmarr wrote:This helps players who want more access now, this helps pretty much any guild that at some point believes a reset is better than extending for whatever reason (and there are countless reasons why that might be). It hurts people who will do something that they don't want to do for some sort of competition, which I believe is a tiny fraction of the player base.

I think it hurts both sets of players. It encourages a "we'll just farm gear until we can out-gear the hard modes" attitude. Some guilds already operate on that method, and this will just let them progress faster. But it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't give them an incentive to get better at the game or improve. In fact, I predict that those players will progress less with such a system, simply because the grindy gear farm will kill whatever appetite for challenging content they may have had. When there's nothing else to do with your raid week than work on heroic bosses, you might try and attempt a few for fun. But if you have to give up a gear advantage to do so, few guilds will bother. And the faster loot accumulation at the beginning of each tier will make hard modes seem less and less relevant or interesting to them.

Admittedly, you don't have to be a superstar at this game to enjoy raiding. But the people who would really benefit from being able to accumulate gear twice as fast, and stomp through normal modes instead of challenging themselves with heroic modes, are exactly the people whom the raid finder is aimed at (or, in the case of 10-man-exclusive players, whom would still benefit from running previous tiers of content). Again, I see no problem with doing this for T11, or T12 once T13 is out. That flexibility makes sense, and would fit in really well with the game IMO. But I don't think the players who want to take advantage of this are the ones who will be clearing T13 normal modes within the first few weeks, so it doesn't make sense to implement it there. The current tier can remain a challenge, and encourage players to improve skill rather than brute-force it by doubling gear intake, because I think that's what the majority of players actually attempting that content want.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:27 am

theckhd wrote:I'd argue that it's not. There are over 8000 guilds that are 6/7H, according to wowprogress. Over 10000 are 4/7H. In fact, at least 20000 guilds have killed at least one heroic mode. So the "playing field" matters to a hell of a lot more than the top 100. Again, it affects the top 100 least - they're just farming gear right now, and otherwise taking a break until new content. 10000+ of those guilds in the middle are still progressing through content, and will be faced with the "clear again on normal or work on hard modes" choice.

Competition is a real factor for a lot of those guilds. Not that they expect to compete with Method or Paragon, but they do compete with other guilds in their same progression category. That sort of competition is healthy for the game, because it keeps players interested. They feel compelled to try harder and play better than when there's nobody to compare to.
But those guilds are already time limited. We killed plenty of heroic bosses too, but we still only raided maybe 6 hours a week. We would not have raided one second more with this change, but we would have had a choice to get more practice for a boss or get more gear. That's a good...no GREAT strategic option. We also would have been able to change things up schedule wise, so that folks that could only come on certain days would have seen more bosses, another incredibly great option for us to help keep attendance and interest in the game up. The additional choice for us would have been incredibly meaningful.

I'm not discounting competition, I'm saying that time is a major factor to the pace of progression and by the time you are beyond the top tier of guilds it's already capped, the choice towards time off has already been made in spite of competition.


Theck wrote:I think it hurts both sets of players. It encourages a "we'll just farm gear until we can out-gear the hard modes" attitude. Some guilds already operate on that method, and this will just let them progress faster. But it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't give them an incentive to get better at the game or improve. In fact, I predict that those players will progress less with such a system, simply because the grindy gear farm will kill whatever appetite for challenging content they may have had.
This is what I disagree with most of all. How on earth can you possibly make these assertions when you have no clue about these people? How can you possibly tell them what is truly in their best interest, without any knowledge of them whatsoever? Or that brute forcing an encounter has some sort of different value. It might to you, but you are merely one of 10 million. Besides, even with a second reset, we'd be no where near as grindy as vanilla was, not even close. I think Blizzard was right to reign that in, it was far more unfair than this would be and it caused balance problems with the encounters, but I'm not at all convinced this even approaches those problems (the balance problem wouldn't exist with this method).
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Tev » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:29 am

Hmm, you know, too bad we can't sell/trade raid lockouts. Before you throw your beer bottles at me, hear me out;

Each guild, assuming they meet the minimum requirements for a raid, would be able to sell their lockout for that raid. By this, a Guild with a min of 10 people of the appripriate level and iLvL would be able to sell their normal or heroic 10 man lockout. A 25+ guild would be able to sell a 10 or 25 man lockout. A guild could only sell 1 normal and 1 heroic per week, and in addition to meeting # of chars, level and gear requirements, there would be an account limitation to prevent people from alt guilding themselves more lockouts. In other words, if you count towards the selling of a lockout in 1 guild, no other chars on that account and server could count towards the sale of another lockout, or be able to attent without themselves using a purchased lockout.

Basically you could sell/buy a clean raid lockout, and use it to reset your raid lockout for the week (new mobs/clearing/etc.). You could sell a 10/25 man lockout for each raid instance.

End result, truely hardcore raids could buy/trade for more loot opportunities for their guild. As content progresses, these guilds can sell the lockouts of lower tier raids which in turn helps guilds not as far along in progression jump a little in progression if they manage the free time to raid, and funds to buy the lockout.

tl/dr; Allow people to buy/sell/trade guild raid lockouts, and control their rate of progression.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:34 am

I'm really trying hard not to step on toes. This post is not directed at anyone person, but it does reference something in theck's post. It isn't aimed at theck. it isn't aimed at anyone else specifically. It is aimed at the "it's not fair because it makes me have to raid more" mentality.

I guess I can't see why it matters to you, or to anyone else if another of the top 20,000 guilds in the game decide that they want to farm and outgear versus do it your way. Why does it matter if they are taught something? Why does it matter if they decide to do it one way, and you decide to continue doing the same type of lockout structure that we have right now?

Why is this such a big deal to people? When 10m raiders screamed at the heavens at the unfair gearing imbalance between 10 and 25 in wotlk, 25's told 10's that it was a 10's problem, and not a 25's problem. Even now, with 10m suffering horridly at the hands of loot distribution, 25m players tell them, it's part of being a 10m guild.

This is the same type of thing. If that guild has the time and resources to run 2 locks a week with the same raiders instead of 2 locks a week, 1 with mains, 1 with alts, who cares? Why does it matter to you? What does that do to impact your play experience? This is a video game. It isn't the olympics. It isn't a professional sport. Hell, "professional" WoW players don't make enough money to sit at home and do nothing else. they get hardware, and some swag.

I don't know. Maybe because I can see my "end time" with the game, I have a different perspective now. I just don't understand why this is such a big damn deal. If you don't want the "extra" lock, then you just don't bother. If you aren't competing for server or world first does it really matter if that other guild that is 2/7 or 3/7 or 4/7 or whatever out of whatever is running more locks than you are?

Look at this as a challenge to say "I'm still competitive, and we only do 1 raid lock a week" instead of "BUT BUT BUT!!!! THEY CAN RUN MORE THAN WE CAN NOW!"

This is still the single best change to raiding for my guild that has been announced since 4.0. Hands down. Not even a competition.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:46 am

Dantriges wrote:BC ZA on a three day schedule was quite dull after a few weeks.


Not as a 10 man only raider in TBC. Having ZA on a 3 day reset was pretty awesome for us since we didn't want and couldn't do 25 mans.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:34 am

Ah k, good that 10 man raiders can now participate in the normal raiding game. I mean that honestly.

Well it changes the meta game and the impacts will be felt. We had that already and Blizard stopped dual ids with one of the reasons "Gearing too fast" and another was "Players get burned out." How it turns out finally we will see. But as a change to the social networks and a change to how the game is played, it will affect everyone, even the guys who opt out.

I find the whole debate very interesting. If someone describes his concerns from a broad perspective, he is making broad assumptions he is unable to, if he describes his concerns from his own PoV he is selfish.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:43 am

Dantriges wrote:Ah k, good that 10 man raiders can now participate in the normal raiding game. I mean that honestly.


Our days have evolved over time. Back then we could field two weekday raid and a weekend raid. So one day would be mains in ZA and a mix of alts in Kara and the weekend would be mains in ZA again. Now we're twice a week, Wed/Thur and maybe we can get enough people on Sunday nights to do old content.

So currently this change doesn't directly affect me due to our shaky ability to field a sunday raid.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:03 am

Dantriges wrote:I find the whole debate very interesting. If someone describes his concerns from a broad perspective, he is making broad assumptions he is unable to, if he describes his concerns from his own PoV he is selfish.
Nice try. It totally depends on what the concern is. So far it's been the same concern, which I don't buy, applied to both situations. "This change will suck for me because of burnout related issues and suck for everyone else because of burnout related issues."

I haven't refuted the latter due only to the fact that it's nearly an impossible choice to make for someone else, but also because the change actually gives others options and flexibility to deal with burnout (like choosing to reset instead of bouncing your head against a boss that your combined power/skill are no match for), and because it's not even close to as "burnoutish" as previous mechanics.

I don't deny the former, it is undoubtedly bad for some people, but whether or not that translates to "bad for the game" based on the concerns put forth so far, is an entirely different matter.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:05 am

Fridmarr wrote:We killed plenty of heroic bosses too, but we still only raided maybe 6 hours a week. We would not have raided one second more with this change, but we would have had a choice to get more practice for a boss or get more gear. That's a good...no GREAT strategic option. We also would have been able to change things up schedule wise, so that folks that could only come on certain days would have seen more bosses, another incredibly great option for us to help keep attendance and interest in the game up. The additional choice for us would have been incredibly meaningful.

I'm not discounting competition, I'm saying that time is a major factor to the pace of progression and by the time you are beyond the top tier of guilds it's already capped, the choice towards time off has already been made in spite of competition.


I'd argue that by taking that option - by choosing the "get more gear" option - you might even be shooting yourself in the foot, at least as far as progression. Especially for few-night-a-week guilds, time spent learning new bosses is critical. It's by far the second-biggest factor in progression (after skill).

But regardless, the point is this: that option might appeal to your guild or others. But it also sets up a situation where the guilds who do care about competition, of which there are many more than you seem to admit to, feel pressured to increase their hours per week raiding. When that difference only nets you a small increase in progression, such as killing a new boss one week slower, then that's often an acceptable trade-off. When it's the difference between getting twice as much loot and progressing significantly faster, the stakes are much, much higher. It's not fair to compare the reasoning for raiding 2 nights a week in the current environment to what it would be if raid lockouts were twice per week. The risk/reward ratio is much different. And again, for players like me, who could meet the time requirements but would rather do something else (or raid the same content on a different character for variety), it's not appealing.

Nonetheless, I think the pacing issue is a bigger factor than any of this. Blizzard would be pretty stupid to implement this for current-tier raids, because people will chew through the content faster and be clamoring for new content sooner. They simply can't keep up with that development schedule without doubling their encounter/raid-designing manpower. And in turn, it would shorten the loot accumulation time by about half, making gearing up and "saturating" a tier of content much faster. That, I think, is the biggest detrimental effect on the game that such a change would have, and that's why I'm certain the announcement will only apply to previous raid tiers.


Fridmarr wrote:
Theck wrote:I think it hurts both sets of players. It encourages a "we'll just farm gear until we can out-gear the hard modes" attitude. Some guilds already operate on that method, and this will just let them progress faster. But it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't give them an incentive to get better at the game or improve. In fact, I predict that those players will progress less with such a system, simply because the grindy gear farm will kill whatever appetite for challenging content they may have had.

This is what I disagree with most of all. How on earth can you possibly make these assertions when you have no clue about these people? How can you possibly tell them what is truly in their best interest, without any knowledge of them whatsoever? Or that brute forcing an encounter has some sort of different value. It might to you, but you are merely one of 10 million. Besides, even with a second reset, we'd be no where near as grindy as vanilla was, not even close. I think Blizzard was right to reign that in, it was far more unfair than this would be and it caused balance problems with the encounters, but I'm not at all convinced this even approaches those problems (the balance problem wouldn't exist with this method).

I'm not telling them what's in their best interest. I'm saying that this is a game, which has levels of difficulty (heroic, normal, LFR) and expectations that go along with those levels of difficulty. Are they somewhat arbitrary? Perhaps, but that's sort of the point; the raiding game has always had a little bit of "you must be this tall to clear this content" involved in it.

The only part of this game that seriously emphasizes player skill is normal and heroic raiding (and arguably the solo parts of the legendary quest). The fact that there is a skill-based assessment is important, because it drives a significant portion of the raiding population. Having the option to clear twice for double the loot instead of working on heroic modes may be convenient, but it serves to subvert that test of skill by outgearing the content. And it also has a negative effect on a large portion (I'd argue the majority) of the players who are attempting that test of skill.

Consider a case study. If you're clearing normal modes, and you have no interest in heroics, then why are you raiding? You're not doing it for the challenge, presumably, as a heroic raider would be, otherwise you'd be attempting heroic modes instead of doing a second normal clear. So you're either interested in loot, in which case this change must seem wonderful because you get shinies even faster, or you're interested in playing with a group of friends.

If you're interested in loot, well, that's fine, but I think that getting too much loot too fast will definitely kill the game for you. It's the classic game design (or behavioral psychology) problem of effort vs. reward. If the rewards come too quickly or regularly, you get desensitized. It's the same reason you can't hit 85 and purchase a full set of 378 gear within a day's worth of work. There needs to be some feeling of having earned that gear, or some amount of time investment in accumulating it, to make it feel meaningful. Being able to farm the latest tier of gear twice a week helps trivialize that, and will cause players to burn out or get bored between tiers faster (and potentially un-sub for short periods of time, again, bad for the game).

If you're interested in playing with a group of friends, then why in the hell must it be Firelands twice a week? If you're able to clear Firelands in one night, and not at all interested in heroic T12, there are plenty of other raids you could work on. Many of the T11 bosses are as difficult as the early T12 bosses, and some of the T11 heroics are easier than T12 normal bosses nowadays. There are even some T11H items that are still best-in-slot, for those that still have loot as a secondary motivation for their raid team.

So I guess that's my point: I don't see how many guilds would benefit from this choice. There may be a few guilds who get a slight advantage by being able to clear twice and exploit gear scaling to subvert the only remaining skill check in the game. But for the most part, all it will do is widen the gap between guilds who have more time to play and guilds who don't, and make raiding on a "time budget" more stressful.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:16 am

theckhd wrote:I'd argue that by taking that option - by choosing the "get more gear" option - you might even be shooting yourself in the foot, at least as far as progression. Especially for few-night-a-week guilds, time spent learning new bosses is critical. It's by far the second-biggest factor in progression (after skill).


There's a few different types of people who raid. Those who raid casually for the experience and aren't concerned with either loot or progression. Those who raid for loot. Those who raid for progression. Those who raid competitively.

For us we aren't competitive at all and lean more towards raiding for loot on the progression vs loot slider. Pretty much only when we have everything we want from a raid would I extend an ID for progression. I have also called raids 90 minutes early when we've made zero progress on our progression boss.

Your view point, to me, is that this is bad for people who raid for competitive reasons. You might argue that this is bad for people that raid for progression but I would tend to side with Fridmarr here in that for those people extending the raid lock is a viable option.

So I guess that's my point: I don't see how many guilds would benefit from this choice. There may be a few guilds who get a slight advantage by being able to clear twice and exploit gear scaling to subvert the only remaining skill check in the game.


I can only point to my own experience back in TBC when we could field three nights of raiding, having ZA on a 3 day reset period was great for us and the odd weeks when it didn't reset on the weekend for us were disappointing for me.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Kelaan » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:23 am

theckhd wrote:I think it hurts both sets of players. It encourages a "we'll just farm gear until we can out-gear the hard modes" attitude. Some guilds already operate on that method, and this will just let them progress faster. But it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't give them an incentive to get better at the game or improve. In fact, I predict that those players will progress less with such a system, simply because the grindy gear farm will kill whatever appetite for challenging content they may have had.

I thought the hard modes were enough that it's pretty hard (short of being 1+ tiers ahead) to brute force them. I don't think my raid team has the skill to do heroic Firelands, even if we were all totally decked out in tier/etc gear.

Was it ever clarified whether it would apply to all tiers, or only what's current now (T11/T12)?
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:24 am

Dantriges wrote:I find the whole debate very interesting. If someone describes his concerns from a broad perspective, he is making broad assumptions he is unable to, if he describes his concerns from his own PoV he is selfish.


Yep.

Ironically, this discussion is only really happening due to lack of content. When T14 hits, there should be enough content to keep everyone quite busy over the course of a 7-day lockout, as it was with T11.

While it has been mentioned that the 7-day lockout levels the playing field, it really only does that for guilds that fit withing that paradigm. There are guilds that a 3/4 day lockout system would level the field for, as they can apply more work and get more of the team geared.

I will admit that I can see how this will hurt the "rankings" of skilled but time limited guilds, and might pressure them to do things that they don't want to do.

There's also going to be no agreement on what the best days for the new lockouts to drop will be.
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