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Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:24 am

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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby mavfin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:22 am

I personally will deal with whichever way Blizzard does the lockouts, but I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:46 am

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well it's not a specious argument. The entire crux of not allowing 2 resets per week is social.


I would argue that it's not social at all. It's a game balance mechanic, and one that Blizzard understands very well. One week might seem like an arbitrary limitation, but it's not. They could very easily make the lockout 1 day, and let guilds raid Firelands 7 days a week if they wanted. They don't for a very good reason - it would be severely detrimental to the game, and destroy any sense that guilds are competing on an even playing field.
It's completely arbitrary, it's just one in which they designed content around. If you want to talk about game play mechanics that's fine. Nearly every argument against this change (and definitely the discussion you quoted me from) fronted so far in this thread has been purely social, starting with the quoted comment from Lore. I've not argued anything from a game mechanics perspective, I'm all for hearing those issues. I just think the social complaint that everyone is getting stuck on is overblown and quite possibly worth the gain.


It's not arbitrary. Think about it. What cycle is your work/school week on? The week is a pretty standard social cycle, which means that they can reasonably expect everyone to have ~2 "weekend" days and ~5 work/school days during one lockout. That gives players and guilds time to schedule and arrange their raiding within that period. Again, it means that the guy who can raid 7 nights a week doesn't have an enormous advantage over the guy who can raid 2, provided they're both capable of clearing the content.

So "not social at all" might be an exaggeration - the one-week raid lockout is obviously a constraint that's based on a social concept, namely that our social lives tend to follow weekly patterns. But it's there for game balance reasons.

fuzzygeek wrote:I personally don't care about the even playing field, and I don't know how much stock Blizzard puts into it either. I don't know how much of their game design is focused on the three weeks post-patch where people are racing to kill things, versus the next seven months the rest of the population spends actually playing the game while the top guilds log on for three hours a week, or whatever it is they want to do. Is an even playing field for the race to world firsts that critical?

The "even playing field" idea isn't very relevant to the top 50. They're capable of playing 7 days a week during those first three weeks, and do so already. While this may change their habits (double clears for extra loot), it won't make a whole lot of difference because they're already ahead by a good margin.

This is most relevant to those guilds that are progressing over the next 3-4 months of the patch cycle, because that's where the extra loot from double lockouts will be most noticeable. They're the guilds that will feel like they need to raid more to keep up and have a chance at recruiting new players.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Tev » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:48 am

As far as expansion release, how far are TW/KR servers compaired to American/EU servers? I'm curious if the main reason for this was because they are planning to sync up content release in TW/KR servers with everyone else.

I'm not too familiar with the whole thing, but I'm under the assumption that some areas are behind on expac/patch release compaires to US/EU servers. Otherwise, why would they chose to give one region such a distinct raiding advantage over the others.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby degre » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:49 am

mavfin wrote:I personally will deal with whichever way Blizzard does the lockouts, but I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.

In short.

If you want to be competitive nowadays with a one week lockout you can be competitive even raiding only 3 days a week, you won't make it to the top 10 but if you can get high enough, have your satisfactions and keep going as the cool rank attracts good players.

With the new lockout raiding only 3 days a week you'll be left behind, you will not be able to keep up with more hardcore guilds and you will drop down, because guilds that run more than you will be better able to progress as they'll make better use of the second lockout.

The choice here is not simply spending 3 or 4 days, goes well beyond, because the real choice is between keeping a 3 days pace and fall behind, or being forced to add another day to keep up. Keep up or give in.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:52 am

mavfin wrote:I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.


Well, a lot of us play cuz we find it fun to raid.
Feeling obligated to play more than you want might make the game less fun to play, and i think thats what people are complaining about.

If Blizzard made the raids reset each and every day, would you find it fun raiding day out?
Or taking a more "casual" approach, nomatter what you would be bored with content within weeks.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:08 am

Oh it´s not the inability to limit my own playtime. It´s more that I am not sure how the guild would react. Either way it will probably result in a shakeup of our existing structure with some people leaving and we are alread struggling a bit. If they would go double lockout my options would be leaving to join another guild, founding my own 10 man guild with like minded individuals, downsize my share of raiding time or quit.

Another guild would be a gamble, 25man became quite rare on my server and they have established tank rosters. So my choices would be join an existing 10 man, found my own 10 man or leave. Server transfer is not much of an option. I rather like my stable of established alt infrastructure and I won´t pay to transfer them all.
So my options are limited to this server.
Managing a 10 man is less work than 25 but I assume it´s still quite some work and frustration. I´ve led a 25 man guild for two years and after some time it felt more like a job than a hobby. It probably increased my time dedicated to WoW at least by 50%. At least I think it would consume time equivalent to another raid day. So in order to keep my raid days as they are now I added one raid day and inreased stress.

So I would have to find another 10 man guild that keeps to the old lockout system or leave. In the likely case that I don´t find a guild that is looking for a tank, keeps to the old schedule, is at least quite ok from its progress and is populated by people I like, my options are down to quit, downsize or adapt to whatever my current guild or its 10man succesor wants to do.

Downsizing my raiding time will lead to some reactions from my guild, so that depends on the social factors. I assume they would be fine with it, if they still exist then. And it will probably result in me falling back gear wise.

So in the end i don´t see many benefits and a lot of negative possibilities if Blizard ever decided to implement the system for EU/NA and apply it to the current tier.
Last edited by Dantriges on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Doz » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:15 am

mavfin wrote:I personally will deal with whichever way Blizzard does the lockouts, but I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.


It wouldn't always be a question of limiting your own play. For example, say you're happy raiding 2-3 nights a week, but your guild decides they will bump it up to 4-5 with a twice a week lockout. Now you have a "choice", but not a good one - you can continue at your pace, fall behind the guild gear wise and not be competitive, or you can find a new guild. Neither of those choices are good ones if you enjoy raiding with your guild. So, while you might be perfectly happy and able to limit your own playtime, there are other factors that effect, or will be effected by, your decision to do so.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:27 am

@Doz: It happens all the time as is... a guild changes directions and people leave/new people join. In your example, nothing really changes in the grand scheme of thing with regards to people changing guilds. If your guild decides to up the number of raids per week, and their attendance policy isn't altered to reflect the new raid times... then maybe it's not the guild for you anymore.

@Dantriges: You're concerned about people leaving your guild and you not having enough people... recruit those from other guilds that left because their goals no longer aligned!
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Malthrax » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:30 am

Doz wrote:
mavfin wrote:I personally will deal with whichever way Blizzard does the lockouts, but I find it amusing that a bunch of grown men/women keep insisting that they would be unable to limit their own play if Blizzard gives them more opportunities to raid.

Oh, and the 'slaving away' thing...if it's slaving away, you can stop. No one makes you raid.


It wouldn't always be a question of limiting your own play. For example, say you're happy raiding 2-3 nights a week, but your guild decides they will bump it up to 4-5 with a twice a week lockout. Now you have a "choice", but not a good one - you can continue at your pace, fall behind the guild gear wise and not be competitive, or you can find a new guild. Neither of those choices are good ones if you enjoy raiding with your guild. So, while you might be perfectly happy and able to limit your own playtime, there are other factors that effect, or will be effected by, your decision to do so.


Look at the bright side - twice the opportunities every week to watch the co-GM's tree Druid get carried off and dumped by Valkyrs because she was a half-mile out of position *again*, and apparently believes "stack up" means "... except for you, my precious special snowflake."
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:31 am

Well I am not even close to being in charge of making guild policy decisions, so I am a "wait and see what they come up with" grunt.
Last edited by Dantriges on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Doz » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:44 am

Skye1013 wrote:@Doz: It happens all the time as is... a guild changes directions and people leave/new people join. In your example, nothing really changes in the grand scheme of thing with regards to people changing guilds. If your guild decides to up the number of raids per week, and their attendance policy isn't altered to reflect the new raid times... then maybe it's not the guild for you anymore.


Yup I understand that things change, I was just trying to give an example to mavfin on why it is not always a simple choice for "grown men to limit thier gameplay time".

Malthrax wrote:Look at the bright side - twice the opportunities every week to watch the co-GM's tree Druid get carried off and dumped by Valkyrs because she was a half-mile out of position *again*, and apparently believes "stack up" means "... except for you, my precious special snowflake."


Hey they killed him once, why you so greedy? :twisted:
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:12 am

theckhd wrote:It's not arbitrary.
It could be two weeks, it could be a month. It could even be 3-4 days like they are contemplating (if not they wouldn't be). Going with a week made a lot of sense. I don't mean to suggest it was a random day pulled from a hat.

Theck wrote:The "even playing field" idea isn't very relevant to the top 50. They're capable of playing 7 days a week during those first three weeks, and do so already. While this may change their habits (double clears for extra loot), it won't make a whole lot of difference because they're already ahead by a good margin.
Not sure if you've read all the posts in this thread, but obviously they don't. That's why I've asked repeatedly why they would suddenly feel compelled to raid more frequently when they are taking days off with bosses alive as it is. The answer has basically been that they want to keep up with those that have more playing time.

Well that's relative, and not at all very compelling. Casual guilds don't generally have as much playing time as the top 100 guilds yet if casual guilds asked for a 1.5 week lockout, the same people complaining about the 3-4 day lockout would be, contradictorily, up in arms.

Treck wrote:Well, a lot of us play cuz we find it fun to raid.
Feeling obligated to play more than you want might make the game less fun to play, and i think thats what people are complaining about.

And again I'd ask why you'd feel that obligation. I mean if you aren't raiding 7 days a week now with bosses still alive, then what's the motivation to suddenly attempt to squeeze in more raid days?

As far as guild relations, scheduling, and all of that goes, a change like this is no different than when raids went from 25 to 40. Guilds had to re-align to the to new raid size, and this caused guilds to break up and new guilds to form. It negatively affected all sorts of guilds from hardcore to casual, but that does not mean it's bad for the game.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:14 am

Skye1013 wrote:@Doz: It happens all the time as is... a guild changes directions and people leave/new people join.

That still doesn't make it a good thing. Earthquakes happen all the time too, that doesn't mean we should be enthusiastic about a tectonic shift that will create more of them.
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Re: Raid CD reset - 2x a week on TW/KR realms

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:18 am

Yet an earthquake isn't something we have any control over. We can move out of their typical ranges, or learn to deal with them.
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