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[10H] Ragnaros

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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Sundance » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:36 am

Ghuul wrote:Hey guys,

we are trying Ragnaros HC (10m) for 6 weeks now.
In the first two weeks we made a constant progress until P4, then realized that 2 Meteors are not viable to handle for us.
Last week we decided to use the 1 meteor strategy like you posted it here and I tryed to refer all your tipps and tricks to my mates. Yesterday we had our best attemps and were pretty close to end P3 with only 1 meteor. During the night we changed our lineup once (Blood-DK felt bad, Prot-Warry replaced him), which decreased our rDPS slightliy but increases our survivability in transmisson phases.
So, here is our best try (i zoomed into the 90sec after the last son died):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 368&e=9458

Has anyone suggestions how to perform better?
btw: Healers did the Meteor-Knockback-Thing and damage to Raggi as far as it was possible.


The main things you can do are:
* Phase 3 Hero
* DPS Potions
* Tanks should put Str/Agi aswell!
* Healers DPS. Our Tree popped ToL and nuked and I popped wings. We don´t need to anymore due to nerfs and gear.
* Push P2.5 right when he casts Engulfing Flame have started casting.
* If Scions live, leave them alone when Ragnaros is back up.

Should help out some.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Ghuul » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:55 pm

Sundance wrote:
* If Scions live, leave them alone when Ragnaros is back up.

Should help out some.


Are you sure this is a good idea? I mean, if you leave the scions for the tanks, they probably live much longer and our DPS will get the fire debuff more often, which decreases the raid-DPS a lot because of the required movement.
Or is there a threshold value where the scions don't apply that debuff to people?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Belloc » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:44 am

Ghuul wrote:
Sundance wrote:
* If Scions live, leave them alone when Ragnaros is back up.

Should help out some.


Are you sure this is a good idea? I mean, if you leave the scions for the tanks, they probably live much longer and our DPS will get the fire debuff more often, which decreases the raid-DPS a lot because of the required movement.
Or is there a threshold value where the scions don't apply that debuff to people?
It's pretty much expected that if the Scions are still alive, they should be almost dead. If they're going to be alive long enough to cause problems with the fire debuff, you need to work on your phase 2.5.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:35 am

Sundance wrote:
Ghuul wrote:Hey guys,

we are trying Ragnaros HC (10m) for 6 weeks now.
In the first two weeks we made a constant progress until P4, then realized that 2 Meteors are not viable to handle for us.
Last week we decided to use the 1 meteor strategy like you posted it here and I tryed to refer all your tipps and tricks to my mates. Yesterday we had our best attemps and were pretty close to end P3 with only 1 meteor. During the night we changed our lineup once (Blood-DK felt bad, Prot-Warry replaced him), which decreased our rDPS slightliy but increases our survivability in transmisson phases.
So, here is our best try (i zoomed into the 90sec after the last son died):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 368&e=9458

Has anyone suggestions how to perform better?
btw: Healers did the Meteor-Knockback-Thing and damage to Raggi as far as it was possible.


The main things you can do are:
* Phase 3 Hero
* DPS Potions
* Tanks should put Str/Agi aswell!
* Healers DPS. Our Tree popped ToL and nuked and I popped wings. We don´t need to anymore due to nerfs and gear.
* Push P2.5 right when he casts Engulfing Flame have started casting.
* If Scions live, leave them alone when Ragnaros is back up.

Should help out some.


Agree with what he said. If you have two healers, especially a rDruid, have one DPS if it's mana netural. I wouldn't recommend this for a Holy Pally as it's expensive, but our rDruid it worked perfect for - he also popped a volcanic to help DPS. You should only need one healer during P3 (although the second healer will have to spot heal his side if people get hit by World in Flames). Our Prot Warrior also tanked the majority of the time since his stacks would fall off some of the time during flames. If you have a tank class that can switch to a DPS stance (Druid, DK, Warrior - in that order) have them be the off-tank during that and be in a DPS mode and only switch back if they need to taunt to let stacks fall off other tank. I hope that made sense.

Belloc wrote:It's pretty much expected that if the Scions are still alive, they should be almost dead. If they're going to be alive long enough to cause problems with the fire debuff, you need to work on your phase 2.5.

Yes. Your scions should either be dying or about to die when he transitions to P3. If not, you need to get better at P2.5.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Bellante » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:36 am

Once again, thanks for all the responses, really helped. Had a gruelling 1% wipe on the last pull of Thursday night, and since we only raid 2 nights a week, it's over a week until we get to try him next. I do feel confident that we'll get him next week, and I assure you we wouldn't have gotten so far without the help of this forum!
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Ratanna » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:54 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1KRT7OFLE

few key tips:
- 3 seeds push during engulfing
- Advantageous to have a taunt class clearing up dreadflame. Say you're in a shitty situation where the trap is buried in dreadflame (probably your last trap needed), the dreadflame sweeper (we used a ret pally) can taunt it and take it to the boss
- If the boss gets insta trapped, its not over, you can run out, i use rocket boots or swift pot and kite him then bubble returning him to the mt
- If you're struggling with seeds. The sorrowsong (blue trinket) provides good burst for when you need it for casters.
- I use bubble to pop a trap when i'm not tanking usually during the before the first wave of seeds
- BoP your shadow priest! BoP gives you a 100% guarantee that there will not be an ad fixated on that target. You must bop before seeds land or it does not work. BoPing the spriest allows him to mind sear the entire way w/o worrying about getting hit/dying.
- Spriests are one of the weakest ranged classes for killing seeds thats why we chose to bop him.
- Bubble/iceblock do the same thing if cast right before seeds. only 8 spawn so its a good chance that add will not spawn.
- You have plenty of time to pop a trap during the p3 p4 phase change so don't freak out if u still have one up.
- most important tip of all, focus and keep calm. Once you kill it once its a breeze to kill again.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby illinivb7 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:11 am

Anyone have any tips on p4 as we are getting there more consistently now but have never made it through to a 2nd breadth yet. ATM I have both tanks and fury warr taking the point stack, and healers/1 range dps and the other 3 dps being the other 2 stack points with a mage handling deluge. We run DG and/or Rallying cry starting around 12 stacks of super heated but it just seems people are getting really high stacks or getting too tight and blowing up the breadth.

Wondering if healers taking 2 seperate points and getting in first is best so they can start throwing out the heals, and possibly making a tank the marker for the point of the triangle so they can start rotating earlier?

I know repetition will solve everything in time but just looking to shorten that learning curve. Thanks
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:07 am

We marked healers as 2 of the stack points, but in practice waiting for them to position didn't seem to happen, especially if one group was already in, the 2nd healer was probably too busy and just waited for someone else to get in position and do the in-out dance so he could go stand on him after.

We had a lot of P4 wipes to people getting too close, and a lot to failing to pingpong him when he's rooted early. After getting enough horrible wipes in to sort most of that out it feels much more stable now - we even had a 13 minute attempt 8 manning P4, which ended with the room full of dreadflame and the boss at 4%. I don't know what you can do to learn it faster, we certainly didn't learn it fast.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:53 am

illinivb7 wrote:Anyone have any tips on p4 as we are getting there more consistently now but have never made it through to a 2nd breadth yet. ATM I have both tanks and fury warr taking the point stack, and healers/1 range dps and the other 3 dps being the other 2 stack points with a mage handling deluge. We run DG and/or Rallying cry starting around 12 stacks of super heated but it just seems people are getting really high stacks or getting too tight and blowing up the breadth.

Wondering if healers taking 2 seperate points and getting in first is best so they can start throwing out the heals, and possibly making a tank the marker for the point of the triangle so they can start rotating earlier?

I know repetition will solve everything in time but just looking to shorten that learning curve. Thanks


In my experience, the key is having a competent anchor group for your triangle, as the other two groups can slowly adjust until they are safely in the breadth. Getting that first group situated in the breadth is key to getting the raid stable at the start of p4. We have both tanks and a resto druid in the anchor group. Both tanks are marked so that there is always a raid marker for the anchor group in case of a tank that has to step out to pull Rag over the roots. As soon as the resto druid gets in position he blows tranq to top off the raid while the other two groups position themselves.

Really the toughest part while we were learning is determining quickly exactly where the breadth actually begins. Right where the graphic changes from blue to bright white is the true boundary of the buff zone, but it's very easy to incorrectly think you're in when you just standing on the outer edges of the graphic. Once your raiders have that down, they can sprint into position with confidence and not have to keep inching closer and closer to the breadth until they see the debuff pop up.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Bellante » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:36 pm

I'm the raid leader on our Rag hc progress, and I used a simple trick (we did a triangle position like everyone else, and healers not on top of each other).

First of all, the reason people are screwing up on stuff like breadth cluttering in the beginning of phase 4 is due to one simple thing: They think they now have to hurry up and kill the boss.

There's too much going on in the beginning of the phase to "hurry up and kill the boss". So I had people do the opposite.

I told everyone to stop dps. Completely. The only things that were allowed was:

A: tanks hitting the boss, obviously.
B: Healers (and anyone else that can) heal
C: Knocking back meteors.
D: Moving into breadth
E: And of course the deluge guy doing his thing.

Not even a single instant dot was allowed on Rag.

I did this and then forced them to just take a deep breath and look around on what's going on, and position accordingly.

So in other words, there's absolutely nothing going on, except knocking meteors back, for 5-6 members of the raid. So they can learn the fight. After that, you just add in actually pressing your dps buttons.

The result was staggering. Immediately we went from wiping on a magma geyser in the very first breadth, and everyone running around like headless chickens, to everyone just calmly finding their way into the breadth, because they KNEW what was going on.

After that, it's really simple to just scale back up to full nuke dps. It teaches people to be able to balance the 2 things, instead of nuking as priority no 1, and therefore not actually learning the fight. I highly recommend this approach, and it works on any mechanic on any boss, really.

I hope that helps!
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:42 pm

That's basically how an encounter should be learned all the time: focus on mechanics first, then worry about making DPS checks once you have the basics mastered.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Brosterr » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:40 pm

Im still looking for an answer to why people do 3 seeds in p2 in order to get 1 meteor. Meaning what exactly does it do to assist with 1 meteor.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Kishandra » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:13 am

Brosterr wrote:Im still looking for an answer to why people do 3 seeds in p2 in order to get 1 meteor. Meaning what exactly does it do to assist with 1 meteor.


Ragnaros begins phase transition at 40.5%. However, as you may have noticed, "beginning" phase transition means he starts the 10 second Sulfuron Smash attack, during which all damage dealt to rag transfers over to phase 3 - he emerges from the lava usually at 38-39% because you've been dpsing him during the transition.

The 3 seeds strat takes it a bit further. You allow him to cast the third wave of seeds, whittle him down to 41%, and as soon as he casts engulfing flames, you begin dps on him. 3 casts of engulfing flames takes about 9 seconds, and if you push right, you get at least another 5 seconds of dps on Ragnaros before he even starts the sulfuron smash.

With around ~15 seconds of free dps on Rag after he hits 40.5%, it means you generally can start phase 3 with Rag initially at 36-37%, which helps the push to 1 meteor a lot. If you could only inconsistently make 1 meteor p4 with good RNG on meteor spawns, now you can make them all, and if you couldn't at all before, now you have a decent chance to.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Bellante » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:04 am

baleogthefierce wrote:That's basically how an encounter should be learned all the time: focus on mechanics first, then worry about making DPS checks once you have the basics mastered.


Completely agree, I've just never ever seen people melt-down the way they did on this fight, requiring it to be set up as an actual rule. I guess it's the conflicting mechanics of taking more and more damage (panic! we're dying!) and having to stand really close, but not just barge in there (run! Get in the breadth!), cause then you wipe everyone. It's really a double whammy, normally we never have those sort of learning issues :)
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Ghuul » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:32 am

Hey thanks for all your advices.

The real DPS-Race didn't happen in P3 for us. It was all about the perfect execution of the second Phase transition. Once we had the scions about to die when we killed the last son, we met the DPS requirements for the 1-meteor-strat.

From this point the only problem was the randomness of dreadflame- and root-spawns.

On our last attempt last night we weren't too unlucky and could bring him down after 8 weeks of trying (10h per week).

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