Just Gotta Say...

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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:58 am

Yeah, the whole "don't bring your sexuality to work" thing, is a pretty unrealistic notion. I think heterosexuals take for granted how often they do just that. For instance on Monday morning when I got to work, a peer asked me how my weekend was. My reply was along the line that it was a fun weekend because my wife had a birthday and we threw her a party. Now, it's a pretty innocuous thing to say, but twice in that one sentence my heterosexuality was "brought into the workplace". Would it really be out of line for me to say that my partner had a birthday and we threw him a party?

As far as civil rights go though, that's a bit more difficult to parse. Many of the things mentioned here probably are not civil rights, that said the 14th amendment (equal protection clause) is meant to extend beyond civil rights to all laws. There doesn't need to be specific federal law if the courts determine that the 14th amendment includes sexual orientation. That said, in some areas homosexuality is still basically treated like a choice. As such, neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals are treated differently under the law. For example, in an area where same sex marriages are not legal, they aren't legal for anyone, including heterosexuals and homosexuals are free to marry somone of the opposite sex if they so choose. It's really just a matter of time though before these locations or the federal government deem it to be a status and not a choice, at which point all those protections will extend to homosexuals.

Culturally, while there's certainly plenty of examples of poor treatment of homosexuals (see the 5% rule above), homosexuality is pretty accepted in the US. Hell, almost every popular TV show the last 10 years has had homosexual key characters. I think it's inaccurate to insinuate some form of systemic injustice, when the vast majority of folks just simply don't care who/what you are having sex with.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:29 am

I just want to say that I think Levie is a nice person and I'm sorry if I made him angry.

I think it likely that we'd be on much the same page if not for an underlying disagreement on what constitutes "civil rights".

For example, there's this housing issue. I don't think it's fair to state that it is clearly self-evident that LGBT citizens do not have the same rights or protections as everybody else on this issue, because of the point I keep bringing up about the libertarian view-point that a Property Owner has the right to decide who to lease his own private property to based on whatever criteria he wants. That point hasn't been addressed by anyone, yet we keep going back and restating this claim of inequality as if my point had been disproved.

p.s. I love MTadin because we can have 7 pages of discussion about an issue like this, with almost no flaming or trolling. Even if my opinion ends up remaining the same, I enjoy having these kind of discussions because I learn a lot from them.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Levantine » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:17 am

So you're saying that a landlord should be able to have a drug lab in the place because hey it's their land? Or they should be allowed to deny an african american person tenancy because of the colour of their skin? Or hey, why not run a brothel? I'm genuinely curious, because if you answer no to any of them then I'm not really sure you can use that train of thought as an excuse for discriminating based on LGBT status either.

Also, I grew up in the redneck state of Australia. I get frustrated when I feel like I'm trying to discuss something with a brick wall, but I'm harder to make angry. I wouldn't have survived without a relatively thick skin.

FWIW I went to a Catholic School where it wasn't just other students bullying me, it was teaching staff as well. I've been denied jobs because I mentioned my partner at the time in passing because I was asked about what I was doing with my life at the time (I know this one for a fact since the person interviewing me and ultimately denying my application decided it'd be fun to joke about it with one of my good friends. Knowing people is fun, yo.), and I regularly have abuse thrown at me while I'm walking home minding my own business.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:13 am

The point is that offering a third party the privilege of renting your private property is a courtesy by you, the owner. NOT doing so in no way hurts the third party. The rule of thumb for what constitutes a "right" is generally that "your rights end at the tip of my nose". In other words, a violation of someone's rights is an action which directly harms that individual. Choosing NOT to do something nice for the individual is not a violation of that person's rights. They had no right to demand you do something nice for them. Effectively, there is zero difference on the third party between a property owner who does not wish to rent to THEM, and that property owner deciding he does not wish to rent at all. The third party has no right to force the owner to do something with his property that he doesn't want to do. Tip of your nose goes both ways. The law punishes action, not inaction.
If you have a problem finding an apartment because you literally cannot convince a single owner that your money is just as good as anyone's, you should either exercise your personal freedom to buy property of your own, which YOU can then do with as you please, or exercise your freedom to move somewhere with fewer bigoted dicks.

Note First Amendment rights. Nowhere is it said that everybody has to like everybody else. They can even say all the mean things they want. They just can't lay a finger on you. But a bigot is hardly violating your civil rights by not wanting to do you favors.


On another note, why would you go to a private Catholic school if it was so completely antithetical to your values and pay lots of money to endure such an unpleasant experience? You should have voted with your feet.
And how fortunate for you to be able to find out so early in the process the kind of people who worked at those jobs you didn't get! What a good escape you made to dodge that bullet, instead of the employer being compelled to pay lip service to tolerance and you only finding out that your boss is a total jerk much later, after already accepting the job!

I think the problem is just that you suffer from being in such an intolerant country. You should consider moving to a much more accepting and diverse nation, like America! (Oh snap I went there! =P)
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Levantine » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:35 am

You say that like America is better off than Australia in this regard, which I find to be a laughable notion. You seem to be somewhat blind to the own inequalities in your own country.

I would go to that school because I had literally no choice in the matter. Parents are a fun thing like that.

From what I can see though, you just validated racism in the property market, which is just as foreign to me. What's good for one group is surely good for another, right?
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:12 am

it was a joke. ha ha.

What's good for one group is surely good for another, right?

No idea what this is supposed to mean.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:17 am

^---If you think it's ok for someone to choose not to rent out his home to someone just because they're gay... is it also ok for them to not rent out their home to someone just because they're black?
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:29 am

Skye1013 wrote:^---If you think it's ok for someone to choose not to rent out his home to someone just because they're gay... is it also ok for them to not rent out their home to someone just because they're black?

Right but on the flip side of that is that you (not Skye1013 but the hypothetical "you") think it's OK for the government to tell you who you must rent your property too. If a member of the Westboro baptist church wanted to rent my property, I'd love to be able to tell him to fuck off, but that would be illegal. Well actually, I'd still say fuck off, but I'd have to let him rent the property just the same.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Skye1013 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:36 am

I was just explaining Lev's point (as I understood it.) Not whether I think it should/shouldn't be allowed. Maybe it's just me, but honestly, if someone doesn't have a poor financial history and isn't planning to conduct illegal activities or completely destroy the property... then I can't see any reason NOT to rent to them.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:53 am

Skye1013 wrote:I was just explaining Lev's point (as I understood it.) Not whether I think it should/shouldn't be allowed. Maybe it's just me, but honestly, if someone doesn't have a poor financial history and isn't planning to conduct illegal activities or completely destroy the property... then I can't see any reason NOT to rent to them.

I know, that's why I put that comment around the word "you". I wasn't referring to you specifically, I just quoted you for context.

While you may not be able to see any reason NOT to rent to someone, I think the reason I mentioned above is quite valid, and if it's my property I can't see how it's your business.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Fivelives » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:57 am

If I own property as a private citizen, and want to rent it out, I should be able to rent it to people that I want to rent it to without government interference.

Legislated acceptance is not acceptance at all. It makes a sort of twisted sense, too - if someone is going to turn down your rental application because of a prejudice, is that a place you would have wanted to rent in the first place? Say for instance that you're black, and you rent a house from a dedicated member of a white power group. What's going to happen the first time that your air conditioner breaks down, or your water heater shits out on you. Do you honestly think that your prejudiced landlord is going to jump right up and fix it for you?

Or say you're that same hypothetical black person working for a grand high mucketymuck from the KKK. Sure, they can't deny you that job based on their prejudice against you, but it'll be a cold day in hell before you get a promotion, and with the at-will employment laws, they'll find a way to axe you sooner or later (probably sooner - in most right-to-work states, employers don't even have to give you a reason for being terminated).

What it boils down to is this: decent people will be decent regardless of any sort of legislations that requires them to be decent. Assholes will always find a way to be an asshole regardless of any legislation blocking them from it.

The fact still remains though: if you want something, then fight for it. Don't just expect to have things handed to you with no effort on your part - that's just being an entitled twit. And all of this talk about "we deserve equal rights" is just that - people being entitled twits. You don't deserve jack shit. If, on the other hand, you fight for it, THEN you can say you earned it.
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