[10H] Baleroc

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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:40 am

baleogthefierce wrote:I can't imagine a scenario where 3 healers is necessary, especially with a Paladin tank since we are OP lol cheese single tank godmode on this encounter.

The first time we did it, we had a warrior tank tanking it and me healing. I'd never healed it on normal, let alone heroic. The next time I was tanking it and we were already used to three healing. We also don't have a DK or priest of any kind.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Belloc » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:48 am

Nika already said it, but,

3 heals = 2 soak
2 heals = 3 soak.

And 3 healing might not be necessary, but it is so much easier if you have the DPS. I've attempted both 2 healing and 3 healing and 3 healing is just so much more reliable.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:50 am

Nikachelle wrote:
baleogthefierce wrote:I can't imagine a scenario where 3 healers is necessary, especially with a Paladin tank since we are OP lol cheese single tank godmode on this encounter.

The first time we did it, we had a warrior tank tanking it and me healing. I'd never healed it on normal, let alone heroic. The next time I was tanking it and we were already used to three healing. We also don't have a DK or priest of any kind.


We don't do any sort of single soaking the first crystal and it's still fine. Post-nerf I just rotate magical reduction cooldowns for Inferno Blade and save everything else for if a healer happens to get tormented (which is the only bad part about 2-healing). Decimation Blade is almost a non-factor now, so I don't even save AD/LoH for those anymore.

It's much less RNGhorrible than 2-healing/1-tanking it pre-nerf, which was hellish.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:53 am

We've always 2-soaked our Baleroc kills, and we always have tormented getting transmitted and refreshed during countdown. I think I've only seen 1 time when tormented didn't xfer over due to countdown, including one time where I actually stood still and let the tormented mage try to edge up 5 yards away and still got it.

2-soaking means there is always someone tormented free to take a crystal without forcing a healer to do it. We also 3-heal (1 tank for heroic), which gives us a little more flexiibility if a healer gets tormented due to countdown. While 3-healing one of our healers is a druid, who generally provides full-time baseline healing on the crystal while the shammy and I alternate on crystals and tanks. The druid can help on tanks at times, but he does not get anywhere near the stacks that the shammy or I get, we usually push 180+ without a solo-soaker.

Also, not every group has a spriest or another class to comfortably solo-soak a crystal.

I think 2 healing would be doable, even 2-healing with 1 tank but much less room for error. The dps of 1T+3H vs 2T+2H is prolly a wash, assuming the dpsing Tank has a strong dps-gear/rotation, which happens to be the case for us. My group doesn't yet put out the dps to 2T+3H on heroic, but we usually get him down without too much trouble.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:02 am

I don't see why you'd 3-soak if you can handle 2, really. With 2 you have less Tormented debuffs rolling, and you have an easy predictable crystal rhythm (which lines up with 1 minute cooldowns for those that have them).
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Petrus » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:36 am

Our problem is that when we two-soak, someone always dies from too many stacks. I feel like 3-soaking is the way to go, but it takes more precision because of debuff spreading.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am

Petrus wrote:Our problem is that when we two-soak, someone always dies from too many stacks. I feel like 3-soaking is the way to go, but it takes more precision because of debuff spreading.

How many healers are you using?

Edit: Although telling me how many healers you're using won't matter a great deal I suppose. Personally, I had to be told to stop using Holy Light once a soaker got to around 8 stacks and that I had to switch to Divine Light. Maybe just telling your healers which spells to use on what stack numbers will help.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:47 am

Belloc wrote:Nika already said it, but,

3 heals = 2 soak
2 heals = 3 soak.

And 3 healing might not be necessary, but it is so much easier if you have the DPS. I've attempted both 2 healing and 3 healing and 3 healing is just so much more reliable.


Depends on raid setup really. With a shadow priest for taking 25 stacks, and how ridiculously disc performs on this encounter, if you have those two and 3-4 reasonably durable dps then there's very little point in 3 healing it. e.g. on one of my runs we have sp take 25 off first crystal, disc gets all the stacks he needs for the rest of the encounter from that while the paladin heals every other crystal, with enhance (sham. rage), feral (barksin), and two dks (ams etc) taking the crystals, with sp (sform, dispersion) and warlock (glyphed soul link) as primary backups.

With that kind of setup there's pretty much no point in 3 healing.

The setup we use in Ni however, with no shadow or disc priest, no class that can take 25 stacks, and only a couple of non-squishy dps, two healing lead to the crystal healer going oom, either because we were three soaking and tank healers had to use expensive heals due to lack of stacks, or because we were two soaking and crystal healing was sending healers oom.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Belloc » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:08 am

Petrus wrote:Our problem is that when we two-soak, someone always dies from too many stacks. I feel like 3-soaking is the way to go, but it takes more precision because of debuff spreading.

What classes/specs are you using to soak the crystals? If you are using warlocks, are they soul-link glyphed? If they're destro, are they using nether ward correctly? Shadow ward, otherwise? If they're paladins, are they glyphing Divine Protection? If not, why not? Etc.

Rhiannon wrote:
Belloc wrote:Nika already said it, but,

3 heals = 2 soak
2 heals = 3 soak.

And 3 healing might not be necessary, but it is so much easier if you have the DPS. I've attempted both 2 healing and 3 healing and 3 healing is just so much more reliable.


Depends on raid setup really. With a shadow priest for taking 25 stacks, and how ridiculously disc performs on this encounter, if you have those two and 3-4 reasonably durable dps then there's very little point in 3 healing it. e.g. on one of my runs we have sp take 25 off first crystal, disc gets all the stacks he needs for the rest of the encounter from that while the paladin heals every other crystal, with enhance (sham. rage), feral (barksin), and two dks (ams etc) taking the crystals, with sp (sform, dispersion) and warlock (glyphed soul link) as primary backups.

With that kind of setup there's pretty much no point in 3 healing.

The setup we use in Ni however, with no shadow or disc priest, no class that can take 25 stacks, and only a couple of non-squishy dps, two healing lead to the crystal healer going oom, either because we were three soaking and tank healers had to use expensive heals due to lack of stacks, or because we were two soaking and crystal healing was sending healers oom.


Even with a proper raid setup as described, 3 healing is easier. Unnecessary, yes, but easier.

Keep in mind -- healers can be the weak spot in a raid, too.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby fafhrd » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:36 am

Soaking counts hardly need to be set in stone, they can depend on who is available to soak and who has what cooldowns up. We've been 1 tank 2 healing since our first kill pre-nerf, with people on vent sorting out who's soaking what for how long every crystal. Sometimes it'll be 2 people per crystal with average cooldowns, sometimes it'll be one for all or most of the crystal if an spriest has dispersion up, sometimes someone will say they'll cooldown an extra stack or 3, sometimes someone will swap in for the last 2 stacks of a crystal. Everyone is ready to have to soak if something goes wrong (even a healer), but usually one DPS and both healers get to stay out of it unless something goes wrong due to countdown.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:45 pm

fafhrd wrote:Soaking counts hardly need to be set in stone, they can depend on who is available to soak and who has what cooldowns up. We've been 1 tank 2 healing since our first kill pre-nerf, with people on vent sorting out who's soaking what for how long every crystal. Sometimes it'll be 2 people per crystal with average cooldowns, sometimes it'll be one for all or most of the crystal if an spriest has dispersion up, sometimes someone will say they'll cooldown an extra stack or 3, sometimes someone will swap in for the last 2 stacks of a crystal. Everyone is ready to have to soak if something goes wrong (even a healer), but usually one DPS and both healers get to stay out of it unless something goes wrong due to countdown.


Being flexible and communicating well are probably the most important aspects of this fight, well said.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby maurok » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:07 pm

Just wanted to share, since it might
Our group don't have a shadow priest (or any priest as a matter of fact) as well to do the the 25 stacks soaking in the beginning. So we tried our feral druid to spec into perseverance, natural reaction and survival instincts, so basically he starts the fight dpsing as cat, then he gets the 1st crystal, at around 9~10 stacks he turns into bear form and uses Frenzied Regeneration (glyphed), then at 13~14 stacks he uses barkskin + Survival instincts, then at 20 stacks I use Divine Guardian.

it is a very good option if you don't have a shadow priest:
Code: Select all
[01:46:27.410] Baalzebull afflicted by Torment (22) from Shard of Torment
[01:46:27.505] Shard of Torment Torment Baalzebull 29384 (A: 4609, R: 46267)
[01:46:28.619] Baalzebull afflicted by Torment (23) from Shard of Torment
[01:46:28.678] Shard of Torment Torment Baalzebull 39072 (R: 38776)
[01:46:29.458] Baalzebull afflicted by Torment (24) from Shard of Torment
[01:46:29.499] Shard of Torment Torment Baalzebull 27687 (A: 9075, R: 97293)
[01:46:30.281] Baalzebull afflicted by Torment (25) from Shard of Torment
[01:46:30.372] Shard of Torment Torment Baalzebull 53705 (R: 91371)
Image
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Donut » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:40 pm

Was hoping for some help with this. We put in like 5 or so tries on this and at some point during every fight (20-40% usually) a healer (2 heals) would get linked to someone with tormented. No one is spreading tormented unnecessarily but halfway through the fight at least one if not both healers would be debuffed with tormented.We couldn't figure out a way for linked people not to spread tormented to whoever they were linked to. Is there a way to get around it or should I push the healers to blow mana through the debuff?
The raid comp is:
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H Pali
Prot Pali
Hunter
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Rogue
Lock
Boomkin (offspecced bear)
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Epimer » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:51 pm

We 1 tank/2 heal it and on the kill both healers ended up Tormented in the middle of the fight in quick succession. It was called out on vent and I popped AD/GaNK (probably the former; I use the latter quite early to allow one healer to build stacks quickly by spam healing crystal soakers), and was ready to pop LoH if need be, but it wasn't a problem.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby fafhrd » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 pm

Can't avoid spreading torment to healers during countdown, at least not in any reliable way. Use tank/raid cooldowns, have other healer switch to tank healing, dps drop gift of the naaru (it scales with the tank's health) on the tank, etc.
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