[10H] Ragnaros

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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:35 am

Gratz!

I agree as well, the cloudburst and initial dreadflame are BRUTAL if they end up on opposite sides. If they spawn close together, you can almost always keep it under control for as long as you need.

Here is from our kill. By the end of it, our mage just said, "okay, it won't kill us, I'm helping to DPS".

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3307 ... nuspov.jpg
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Ratanna » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:46 am

Its been a while since i posted here. =D. but here is our Rag video (it has production value). Hope it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im1KRT7O ... r_embedded

watch in 1080p for the full experience
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:50 am

Barely getting any attempts in anymore due to RL stuff. Attempts we get usually end up wiping in p4 to not dealing with roots spawning under rag at all properly. Tried suggesting the off-tank just leave the frost patch and wait outside to taunt early in case the root spawns near the boss, but keep getting told this won't work by the tanks. Is it that hard to do?

If we can't do that, how are people managing ping-ponging him through his buff when the root is wasted early? Are your tanks enough to manage it reliably, or do you have a 3rd/4th person taunting as well. Does Distracting Shot work to taunt him in P4?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:00 am

fafhrd wrote:If we can't do that, how are people managing ping-ponging him through his buff when the root is wasted early? Are your tanks enough to manage it reliably, or do you have a 3rd/4th person taunting as well. Does Distracting Shot work to taunt him in P4?

I think they made Distracting Shot not work on bosses anymore.
However your 2 tanks can easily ping-pong the boss around if roots are wasted (usually if they spawn ontop of where he is standing, with his increase in size its close to impossible to have time to run him out of it.
Just remember that his meele range is huge, so dont let him get to close.
You want one of your tanks to run away as much as he can, then taunt during his sulfaras cast, then he runs away untill the other tank taunts.
We usually need to taunt back and forth twice before the duration is over, so he goes: me -> other tank -> me -> other tank, then the buff is usually gone.
Just remember to run back in taunt range when you need to taunt from the other tank.
Ragnaros moves just a bit slower than you so if your taunt is out of range, you can catch up to him.
Hardest part is knowing how close to hitting the other tank he is, so just play it safe and dont let him chase your other tank for to long.
Alternativly you can taunt at max range when he starts the cast, run like hell and bubble, just make sure your other tank knows this and high tails it the opposite way, you should still get aggro back as soon as you use an ability after bubble goes off.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:14 am

Thanks. Tanks are a warrior and druid, so no bubble (although maybe shadowmeld, briefly). They were probably not taunting him as many times as you said, since he has gotten a melee swing off the times we've tried it.

Trying to work out if it's even worth it for our tanks to try to move him away when a root is spawning, because as you say he just doesn't seem to move fast enough most (all?) of the time. If he's going to turn at all to stay in range it seems hopeless, so the only way seems to be moving directly away from him, although that's not necessarily the direction directly away from the trap.

Does anyone know if heroic leaping over a Breath will trigger Geyser?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:37 am

fafhrd wrote:Thanks. Tanks are a warrior and druid, so no bubble (although maybe shadowmeld, briefly). They were probably not taunting him as many times as you said, since he has gotten a melee swing off the times we've tried it.

Shadowmeld doesnt really work since every time you get superheated damage it breaks shadowmeld.

fafhrd wrote:Trying to work out if it's even worth it for our tanks to try to move him away when a root is spawning, because as you say he just doesn't seem to move fast enough most (all?) of the time. If he's going to turn at all to stay in range it seems hopeless, so the only way seems to be moving directly away from him, although that's not necessarily the direction directly away from the trap.

Yeh, whell its always best to TRY to move him out of a trap, dont just sit there and "oh well bad spawn lets kite", better to try.
Best thing is having someone allready away from the boss taunting him, like a dreadflame removing druid would be ideal, but in 25man you usually cant afford it.
Having your warrior heroic leap out and taunt is however extremely good.
Sometimes the trap just spawns on the tank activly tanking, and theres not much to do about that unless your a warrior, and even then its barely.
Always be prepared for when the roots are spawning on if you have to move or not, thats the best help i can offer


fafhrd wrote:Does anyone know if heroic leaping over a Breath will trigger Geyser?

From what we have gathered, he checks where people are compared to eachother every few seconds.
As it doesnt seem to actually be "once your close enough geyser spawns", but rather "are they grouped up enough now? how about now? now then?".
Since we have seen people running all over the place for a sec or two without triggering one.
Thus i beleave heroic leaping over breath has a very low chance of triggering a geyser since he needs to check for your positions the very second he is mid jump.
That said, id do everything i could to avoid it still.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Bellante » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:11 pm

I seem to recall on Al'Akir, that heroic leap counts as "you're standing at the take-off position until you land" (at that boss it was in leaping over the tornadoes, which was highly doable, just not if the tornadoes hit your take-off position before you landed).

I'm guessing it would be the same functionality on Rag.

On a different note, we're finding it extremely difficult to clear p3 with just 1 meteor, to the point where we're considering delaying bloodlust to p4, since we're getting 2 meteors anyway. Our comp is:

Enha shaman (me)
Prot pala
Prot warr
Boomkin
Shadowpriest
MM Hunter
Demonology warlock (for elemental aoe and 10% spellpower increase)
Resto druid
Resto shaman
Death knight / arcane Mage

Dk is a bit undergeared (ilvl 369 after a recent upgrade I believe), so we go with mage if he's available (ilvl 384). Boomkin is a bit undergeared as well, as it's an offspec (379 ilvl).

My questions are (bear in mind it's only getting through p3, preferably with scions dead before we enter p3 (they're not at this time) and ofc winning the fight in p4 that's the issue of the questions below):

1: Is it really the gear on the 2 underdogs (dk and boomer) that make that much difference? We don't dps scions at all if they're not down by the time we enter p3, they just get killed by tanks, so everyone is on rag (he emerges at about 38%, but even if we got him to 35%, we're still at 15-16% when the 2nd meteor lands). Healers are helping dps as well.

2: Are people still using Sorrowsong trinket? Some theoretical calculations using simcraft scaling factors indicate that the trinket is worth using over Necromantic Focus for the lock, spriest and boomer (unsure about mage because of how they interact dps-wise with their manapool in arcane), but I'm just not sure if it's good to use in practice.

I seem to remember that the Equip effect was changed after Paragon used it for kill to include the downtime period:
Equip: Your spells that damage a target below 35% health grant 1710 spell power for 10 sec. Cannot activate again for 10 sec after bonus expires.

If anyone has any tips or suggestions for the raid comp to do more damage, I'd be grateful to hear it. Boomer can go feral, I can't go elemental, and obviously the lock can be affliction if needed. The warr can also go arms/fury, and the boomer feral tank (that's his main spec).

And gz to all the new kills in this thread, gives heart to the rest of us that are in the 99.6% unsuccessful wipes on WoL (there's a nasty statistic for you right there!).
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Belloc » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:27 pm

If you think you're close to 1 meteor, try having your prot paladin wear 2pc ret tier 12.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:53 pm

How undergeared are the boomer and dk Bellate? We were usually a couple of seconds short of beating the 2nd meteor until our boomkin alt got his 4pc T12, after which we could could fairly realiably beat the timer. This week we also got our dk backup dude a firestone, and were several seconds ahead of the timer on a few pulls.

I'm not sure how you'd be 5-6% behind though. Are people saving whatever cooldowns they can for P3, making sure to pot for, throwing down stuff like shattering throw during heroism, having at least one of the tanks focus on dpsing as much as possible, etc? Also making sure to be in good positions as the phase starts, so they get to pretty much turret till the first WiF, and also not have to move any more than necessary for meteors (i.e. be in whatever positions you planned out, and have healers punting the meteors).

Oh, and you really do need to get the scions dead before the phase starts, or withing seconds of it starting - having them cast blazing heat will wreck people's dps.

As far as I know our casters (arc mage, destro lock, boomkin) aren't using sorrowsong. Wish we had a demo lock for better P3 dps, but we need replenishment.

The guilds that have been killing this for a while are miles ahead of us in P3 dps too, Spike Flail and Damage Per Second apparently beat the 2nd meteor with 15-20 seconds to spare :/.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Brosterr » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:01 am

I need someone to explain this to me if they know the answer.

So I had read a bit before really getting to p4 a lot that many 10 mans were waiting for the third seed spawn to burn the boss. I mistakenly thought it had to do to him not being able to transition while casting engulfing flames but last night I realized that is not it at all (one reason being because he can transition during EF, at least he has for us more than once).

If we just push straight through our dps is normally on the 1-2% line of whether we push 1 meteor or not. Without doing anything special we have never successfully pushed 1 meteor, though we have had attempts where the remaining 1% when he cast it could be blamed on something (eg. hunter kiting meteor for transition waaay to early). I had given in the the fact that we were going to learn p4, at least for the time being, with 2 meteors.

On to last night....so one attempt our warrior died in p2 obviously slowing our dps. We got him up in time and still had the dps to push 2 seeds, though it was very close, like 1 second on the meteor timer close. p3...... right before casting the meteor he cast engulfing flames, which lead to an incredibly easy 1 meteor. This is the point where i facepalm and realize why guilds were doing 3 sets of seeds. As i didn't know exactly what they do, and waiting on a third seed spawn then burning didn't make sense to me at the time, we tried to just repeat what had happened earlier. We successfully pushed back the p2 transition to within a couple of seconds of the 3rd seed multiple times which always led to an easy 1 meteor.

Here is my question though... is there an easier way? I ask because while we did pull off what I mentioned above more than once, it was hit or miss do to the errr 2 second window you have. As many times as we transitioned to 2.5 right before seeds, ensuring 1 meteor, we were late on 2.5 and got hit by the seeds in the transition. We did get to a point where I comfortably know when to tell the dps to start and stop, I just feel like I missed something to do with people waiting on the third set of seeds. What exactly do you do in that scenario?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:53 am

We've noticed him postpone his meteor cast for flames at times too, never got it consistently - it should be consistent enough if you find the right timing though, and it sounds like for your raid pushing P2.5 where you do seems to be the timing, so there doesn't seem a reason not to keep doing that if you can.

You supposedly do get a bit of extra dps time on him by waiting for 3rd seeds and a WiF to start casting for the push, even though he interrupts the cast to push. We don't and get him to about 37-38% before he submerges, but other people are taking 3 sets of seeds and getting him to like 34% before he submerges.

As for how people dealt with it, I think a lot just dealt with it by doing ridiculous P3 damage :/ Even doing all kinds of tricks to squeeze out an extra 2-4% here and there, some of the guilds that killed him early manage to push a full 15-20 seconds faster than we do, which is either a huge extra amount pushed pre-submerge, or just flat out vastly better dps (and looking at logs like demolocks doing 54k over the entire P3, it seems like the latter).
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Paoanii » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:56 am

Honestly, it felt like our dps in phase 3 depended more on our transition into the phase and whether the scions were down than anything else. On attempts where we were able to kill both scions before he came up, we had him to 10% with nearly 15 seconds left on the next meteor, but on attempts where either dps on scions was too low or someone killed the add to fast, we would barely get a second meteor or miss it by fractions of a second. That little bit of extra dps on rag from killing the scions in p2-p3 transition may not seem like a lot but it can really make a difference in your ability to push him. We weren't doing anything fancy to push him unusually low before he submerged, he was at 37% every time.

If you would like to look, I'll post logs here from our most recent kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0i268fkhbsppn7xj/analyze/dd/source/?s=6263&e=6357 this is a snapshot of our p3 dps from our kill, but you can get to the rest of the log from there.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Bellante » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:07 am

fafhrd wrote:How undergeared are the boomer and dk Bellate? We were usually a couple of seconds short of beating the 2nd meteor until our boomkin alt got his 4pc T12, after which we could could fairly realiably beat the timer. This week we also got our dk backup dude a firestone, and were several seconds ahead of the timer on a few pulls.


The boomer is lacking 4 set bonus, hoping we'll have that sorted soon. Dk is very badly geared compared to the rest of the raid, but does insanely well, out dps'ing myself as enhancer while bloodlust is up (which makes me hate enhancement scaling with haste even more). We've focused on upgrading his weapons as fast as possible, which seems to have made a huge leap in the dk's dps.

fafhrd wrote:I'm not sure how you'd be 5-6% behind though. Are people saving whatever cooldowns they can for P3, making sure to pot for, throwing down stuff like shattering throw during heroism, having at least one of the tanks focus on dpsing as much as possible, etc? Also making sure to be in good positions as the phase starts, so they get to pretty much turret till the first WiF, and also not have to move any more than necessary for meteors (i.e. be in whatever positions you planned out, and have healers punting the meteors).

Oh, and you really do need to get the scions dead before the phase starts, or withing seconds of it starting - having them cast blazing heat will wreck people's dps.


See, we still have scions alive by p3, so it could be that a big part of the problem comes from not being fast enough on sons, which might be aggravated further by not having proper trinkets on, I don't know. I'm thinking that's where we need to hit harder, as we're losing tons of dps on those blazing heats.

Paoanii wrote:Honestly, it felt like our dps in phase 3 depended more on our transition into the phase and whether the scions were down than anything else. On attempts where we were able to kill both scions before he came up, we had him to 10% with nearly 15 seconds left on the next meteor, but on attempts where either dps on scions was too low or someone killed the add to fast, we would barely get a second meteor or miss it by fractions of a second. That little bit of extra dps on rag from killing the scions in p2-p3 transition may not seem like a lot but it can really make a difference in your ability to push him. We weren't doing anything fancy to push him unusually low before he submerged, he was at 37% every time.

If you would like to look, I'll post logs here from our most recent kill: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-0i268fkhbsppn7xj/analyze/dd/source/?s=6263&e=6357 this is a snapshot of our p3 dps from our kill, but you can get to the rest of the log from there.


We're not particularly far off this Paoanii, seems to me though that the main culprit might be the sons/scions and a bit of gear.

Do you have any advice on whether or not to use Sorrowsong trinket?

Thanks for your input!
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Kitmajere » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:36 pm

Another pointer, which I believe was mentioned previously in this thread, is to have your healers/tanks handle the meteor knockbacks. For us, we have our priest stand on the melee side and she dpses the boss/does all of the knockbacks there. On the tank side our DK tank does all of the knocking (Glyph of Resilient Grip is op). You'll have to tailor this to your group, but if you don't need to have a healer on the melee side you could have the resto druid handle meteors on the tank side, with the dps dk getting the other side.
Additional question - is the warrior also main spec tank? So you have 3 tanks? Depending on your seed strat/need for knockbacks, having the boomkin go to his main spec as feral tank and the warrior as fury (if he's good at it), should be an up. Bears can go kitty while not tanking, and they are the highest dps tank class for this fight - probably due to this. Our warrior also does very well during this phase, and execute is nice for a lot of the actually hard parts of the fight. It also adds the bleed debuff for your hunter (assuming he's using 5% crit pet at the moment). And that reminds me (and this may be stupid since you already do it) make sure that your MM hunter is bringing the correct pet for comp (i.e. no frost dk - bring 4% physical, your current setup - bring 5% crit, etc).
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Ghuul » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:29 am

Hey guys,

we are trying Ragnaros HC (10m) for 6 weeks now.
In the first two weeks we made a constant progress until P4, then realized that 2 Meteors are not viable to handle for us.
Last week we decided to use the 1 meteor strategy like you posted it here and I tryed to refer all your tipps and tricks to my mates. Yesterday we had our best attemps and were pretty close to end P3 with only 1 meteor. During the night we changed our lineup once (Blood-DK felt bad, Prot-Warry replaced him), which decreased our rDPS slightliy but increases our survivability in transmisson phases.
So, here is our best try (i zoomed into the 90sec after the last son died):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o ... 368&e=9458

Has anyone suggestions how to perform better?
btw: Healers did the Meteor-Knockback-Thing and damage to Raggi as far as it was possible.
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