Holydin - PvE 4.2

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:50 am

Ok, so looking at some of the other threads in here, I can't really find anything that's been updated since 4.2. I've dinged 85, run my first troll as a healer, and just wanted to make sure I'm not doing something horribly wrong (every seems to be staying alive, but that could be people overgearing as much as good healing practices.) Keep in mind, I'm primarily in 5 mans, but if I can get the gear/knowledge, 10m raiding isn't out of the question.

Spec choices :
(Sorry for not knowing the talent names... I'm at work and can't effectively look them up)

Tower of Radiance (I think that's what it's called... direct heals on beacon'd target gives hopo.) Should I have this in my spec? I've noticed (at least in 5 mans) that there will be times where I'll only need to heal the tank (my standard beacon target) and they'll take big spikes of damage that are hard to keep healed with HL/HS (and my hopo isn't building fast enough.) But at other times, I'll be "wasting" hopo because the group just isn't taking much damage. What are the thoughts on this talent nowadays?

Spir -> Hit conversion talent (+judgement heals.) Is this something worth picking up in order to ensure my haste buff doesn't drop off (and extra self healing) or is this more of a PvP/wannabe shockadin talent?

Direct damage generates hopo. On fights where adds hit me, I've found this to be an excellent source of hopo, but does it also work on boss AoEs? If not... is it worth keeping in my spec for those times I am (unintentionally or not) add tanking?

There may be other questionable talents that I have/haven't picked up (armory link in sig -Aleks) so if you see something out of the ordinary, then please let me know why you think it's an invalid choice.

Gems/enchants/reforging:
I'm mostly going for the assumption Int>Spir>=Haste>Crit/Mast, and gem/enchant accordingly. If something is glaringly wrong with that, please enlighten me.

Glyphs:
See armory link (I might be in my tank spec/gear, but I'll try to remember to log off in holy gear for a bit while people help me out :))

Thanks for any assistance!
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Cogglamp » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:00 am

I think you're going to need Tower of Radiance, especially in 10 man raiding. I find that "wasting" HoPo is better off than not having it when I need it. You have a floating point (see below) so you can drop it in Light of Dawn or Blessed Life.

You only need one point in Enlightened Judgements to insure that your judgement hits for the mana return.

Also, Blessed Life is nice but I wouldn't take it over Tower of Radiance.

You could drop a point out of Protector of the Innocent, Enlightened Judgements, and one point in Blessed Life to max out Tower of Radiance and you'd still have one point in Blessed Life for some added HoPo (albeit random). This last point in Blessed Life is floating since most 5 man/10 man holydins don't care too much for Light of Dawn but there are definitely fights where LoD is useful.

I think you're going to find different answers on stat priorities but spirit is certainly #2 in my book.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:27 am

Tower of Radiance (I think that's what it's called... direct heals on beacon'd target gives hopo.) Should I have this in my spec?


Take it, always go for free HoPo, it will save your mana pool. My healing strategy hasn;t changed that much for 4.2. However, I have changed some glyphs around for raiding in Firelands. I dropped cleanse glyph and LoH glyph for Holy Wrath and DivProt glyphs. Previously I really like the man returns on LoH glyph, and for cleansing fights that glyph is also a lifesaver.


Spir -> Hit conversion talent (+judgement heals.)


I think I do have 1 point in this, but 2 points are not needed, your spirit is going to be so massive that the hit isn't that big of a deal and the loss of 5 yards range is not critical either, assuming you take the ret talents for range.


Direct damage generates hopo. On fights where adds hit me, I've found this to be an excellent source of hopo, but does it also work on boss AoEs?


AOE does trigger this effect (every 8 secs), and I do like it. On Domo if you are sharing flame scythes that can add up to a lot of free hoPo. And it does rock if you ever get into Holy-PvP, rogues give you free HoPo for WoGs, lol.

I can't look at armory right now, but your priorities loog good and remember that outright reforging out of mastery is usually a good idea. Bumping up your haste is great for Holy Rad ticks as well as general casting. Personally I like to get all my socket bonuses, but that is a personal choice.

Also, remember to use all of your CDs. I am a HealBot-ter, and I have most of the combos for a 3 button mouse crammed (some (I'm looking at you 'Alt' Key) are not comfortable for my fingers given my keyboard layout). I have even put Gift of the Naaru as Ctr-Shift center click. So I can HoP, Sac, Salv, HoF, and GotN at all times. Keep Aura Mastery handy, and sometimes even a timely stun can help if you can spare a GCD. Don't be worried about the long CD on GanK, use it when things get bad, it can sve your mana and the party/raid, and a live group can adjsut better than a wiped one. Holy Radiance can be nice for AOE heals (and as an AOE raid/grp CD if ppl are stacked close), but also for mobility (20 sec CD sprint if you can spare the mana is nice, and awesome for wipe runbacks). I almost never use flashlight in a 5-man (LoD on 1-2 ppl is basically a waste) and only rarely in 10m raiding (full group stack situations are uncommon, but I do keep LoD handy in most raid situations, although I dropped that talent for my PvP/Exodin spec).

You could drop a point out of Protector of the Innocent, Enlightened Judgements, and one point in Blessed Life to max out Tower of Radiance and you'd still have one point in Blessed Life for some added HoPo (albeit random). This last point in Blessed Life is floating since most 5 man/10 man holydins don't care too much for Light of Dawn but there are definitely fights where LoD is useful.


^^ definitely
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:49 pm

Alrighty... I made the suggested changes to my spec, will have to try it out and see how I like it. Though I will say in 5 mans, I haven't been using much FoL/DL, so Tower of Radiance might be mostly wasted until I start raiding. Oh, and my holy set is now visible on the armory, with most of it (346+ stuff) gemmed/enchanted. I'll definitely have to get better at using my cds as well. I'm horrible about using cds (which is why I tend to gravitate towards Equip effect trinkets :D.) I do use GoAK in dire situations, and have used AW/DP a few times, but maybe it's just because there hasn't been much of a challenge in 5mans to need to use them more.

Is there a certain haste level I should be striving for... or is it like spriests where more haste is almost always better than mastery/crit?

I was sure I had another question... but for the life of me I can't remember it, so I guess that's it for now.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:25 am

Even though you think you might not need it, ToR really is a great talent. I like to try to weave in DLs even when tank damage is low. Provides a nice shield and keeps HoPo high just in case someone decides to stand in purple goo.

I'm sure there is a haste threshold to provide an extra tick of Holy Radiance but for the life of me, I don't know what it is. I just know that I like haste...a lot. In pvp, however, haste falls below crit for me.

Hand of Sacrifice is another fantastic spell, just not on Baleroc when you're healing decimation blade. >.>

Aura Mastery is one of my favorites as well. I know Power Auras helps me keep track of all our cooldowns (we have a lot, more than any other healer I think). My guess is that the 4.3 5 mans will be a little more challenging and will require you to use them (at least for the first 3 days until everyone is geared to the teeth again).

Edit: Might want to ditch those cloth bracers and leather hands ASAP. You're losing out on the Plate Specialization and a lot of intellect. The PvP crafted ones provide a significant amount of intellect and serve as a nice failsafe option until PvE ones can be acquired.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:47 am

As for haste plateaus, there was a table from elitist jerks that someone reproduced in one of the threads here. At certain haste levels (including all buffs/transient effects) you will gain an additional tick of Radiance, upto several additional ticks. In general, Radiance ticks once per sec for 10 secs, so every 10% haste is an extra tick, remember to keep judgement haste up once per minute at least for that 9%. I think I now have like 30%+ haste (I do get 13 ticks, at least with judgement haste active), i'll have to check, but generally more is always better. The proposed changes to Radiance in 4.3 will make me cry if they go thru.

Also, you can bubble sac some scenarios. Someone mentioned on a different thread that if you have glyphed DivProt (mostly for raiding prolly) then it is awesome for Sac-DivProt combo as the xfered dmg is all magical. I have used this, and I really like it. Just keep in mind Sac lasts 15 secs and DivProt lasts 6, so you will take a ton of dmg (60% of health if dmg is within the 6 secs, more if dmg equalling 100% of your health take longer than that) and it can be disconcerting watching your health drop. Protector of the Innocent can keep you up if you are not taking direct dmg yourself. Using DivShield-Sac is nice, but the 5min CD limits the frequency and again its shorter duration still leaves you vulnerable, although you can chain both DicProt and DivSh if you needed the full duration for some reason.

Even though you think you might not need it, ToR really is a great talent. I like to try to weave in DLs even when tank damage is low. Provides a nice shield and keeps HoPo high just in case someone decides to stand in purple goo.


^^ definitely.

Also, keep in mind Hand of Prot is awesome for casters. It only protects against physical dmg and therefore only inhibits physical output. HoP on a caster will make them immune to a physical boss attack but allow them to continue to pump magical dps until the tank can build his threat lead.

Salvation can also be good for things, although in a 5-man Aura Mastery and GanK are prolly gonna be your best friends. Just try not to use Holy Shock while GanK is up unless you are desperate.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:04 am

Agreed, I'm not a huge fan of the HR change. It's a nerf to Holydin PvP as our "sprint" has increased by another 10 seconds and Holydin mobility was already bad. While our survivability might have increased, it's usually bad placement that kills me on my part and the sprint is always a big help.

If you're really hard pressed on AoE healing, Divine Favor + Holy Radiance throws out huge numbers. Not druid like numbers but good enough to stabilize people.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:40 am

I love Divine Favor for Baleroc :D
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Flex » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:08 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:Just keep in mind Sac lasts 15 secs and DivProt lasts 6


12 and 10.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Flex » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:58 pm

I have 23% spell haste in my holy set post judgement and I get 4 ticks from the new Holy Radience.

Spell Power: 6067 (only a blue 346 weapon and mostly 346 blues with a few 359/365 items)
Initial heal is 3454 each tick is 1409
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:51 pm

Cogglamp wrote:Edit: Might want to ditch those cloth bracers and leather hands ASAP. You're losing out on the Plate Specialization and a lot of intellect. The PvP crafted ones provide a significant amount of intellect and serve as a nice failsafe option until PvE ones can be acquired.

Working on it... I think I had green LK items in those slots when they were upgraded... and I haven't had the plate specialization for holy since release... so that's definitely a work in progress atm. T11 gloves are likely my next JP purchase, and once I have the VP, I might consider the VP bracers (assuming something doesn't drop from a dungeon run first.)
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Levantine » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:38 am

I accidentally told Bob, Lana and Catagon that your Paladin was in a rotten state, so they MIGHT be collecting orbs and truegold. *innocent*
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:01 am

Lana already knew and was just wanting/needing volatiles to work on truegold. I've been trying to figure out how many of what I need to send him to get the process rolling. I mean, I guess I could look it up online, but I tend to forget once I get home, and can't look it up at work. And to be fair... for a relatively fresh 85, he's not THAT bad. Sure he could be a lot farther along if I was spamming heroics, but he is an alt...
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Amirya » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:55 am

He was also slightly concerned you'd signed up for this weekend on said paladin.

I am positive you signed up on him just to reserve your spot, not actually take him.

:)
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:31 am

I like to make people sweat... I forgot I was on the pally when I signed up and didn't decide to correct the issue, figuring you guys would figure it out (I know, I know... giving you guys the benefit of the doubt might have been too much.) :)
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby poptart » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:16 am

From Elitist Jerks, the current 4.2 "Haste soft-point" that you want to shoot for is 1860 Haste for an extra tick of Holy Radiance.

My general rule of thumb for Firelands has been:

Max Intellect possible (higher I-level PLATE and Int enchants)
Match gem sockets if the bonus is Intellect (Blue = Int/Spirit, Yellow = Int/Haste); pure Intellect gems if bonus is not Int
Spirit to 2500
Haste to 1860
Mastery after that...

However, under 4.3 and a Holy Radiance that is only 3 seconds (ticks) long, the Haste Soft Point is only going to be 901 Haste rating (when you have your 9% haste buff from Judgement). That gives you a 4th tick of Holy Radiance. The 5th tick of Holy Radiance comes at like 3600 Haste rating (or when under Bloodlust, DF, etc).

So, one of the most interesting things about 4.3, IMO, is how our stats are going to change.

Spirit is going to become interesting since we will get an additional 30% in combat Spirit based mana regen (just like Priests) and can only boost that with melee swings. Does that mean we need more Spirit than now? Less Spirit? The same relative amount?

Haste has become significantly less important once you get to the 901 cap. Theoritically, you just gained 900 rating points to allocate into Mastery or Crit strike. In reality, very few Paladins will probably go as low as 900 haste rating because our timed casts will feel sluggish as all get out (like my Priest's do now with only 950 haste rating). But, I can imagine easily dropped down 400 rating points to 1400 Haste rating and moving those to Mastery/Crit. That is exciting.

Crit no longer has any synergy with anything to do with Paladin healing which is sad. I still like 200% crit heals but everyone gets those.

Light of Dawn (glyphed) will now be an excellent tool for the 10 man raider (and 5 man heroic) healer. I am excited to add that back into my toolkit (AoE healing phases can now be HR, 1pt LoD, HR, 1pt LoD spam).

Very exciting times for a Holy Paladin. I cannot wait for 4.3

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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby rodos » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:34 pm

poptart wrote:Spirit is going to become interesting since we will get an additional 30% in combat Spirit based mana regen (just like Priests) and can only boost that with melee swings. Does that mean we need more Spirit than now? Less Spirit? The same relative amount?

The calculations I've seen indicate that in current gear levels the change is a nerf to regen if you were diligent about judging on cooldown. So, if that was you, you might want more spirit. Personally I've found myself to be pretty bad about judging regularly, so it might be a buff to me.

poptart wrote:Haste has become significantly less important once you get to the 901 cap. Theoritically, you just gained 900 rating points to allocate into Mastery or Crit strike. In reality, very few Paladins will probably go as low as 900 haste rating because our timed casts will feel sluggish as all get out (like my Priest's do now with only 950 haste rating). But, I can imagine easily dropped down 400 rating points to 1400 Haste rating and moving those to Mastery/Crit. That is exciting.

It certainly makes things more flexible. I'll probably still prefer haste as I find long cast times pretty irksome.

poptart wrote:Light of Dawn (glyphed) will now be an excellent tool for the 10 man raider (and 5 man heroic) healer. I am excited to add that back into my toolkit (AoE healing phases can now be HR, 1pt LoD, HR, 1pt LoD spam).

I've seen people talking about this rotation, but not sure what the advantage is. I'm assuming that the splash effect from Radiance will stack, so you can overlap them slightly by using alternating targets, because with haste over 900 the HoT duration will be a little longer than the cast time of the next HR. The healing scales linearly with HoPo, but it seems a waste to use 3 GCD when you could use 1: HR,HR,HR,LoD3.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:43 am

poptart wrote:Max Intellect possible (higher I-level PLATE and Int enchants)

Subtle...

Only reason I don't have full plate is because I was upgrading already non-plate pieces (and haven't found plate replacements.) And they were non-plate pieces from Wrath (prior to plate specialization being introduced.)

I am wondering with 4.3 changes to HR... how much more desirable mastery will become (do we know how it affects it at this point, or is it just that HR will now stack the bubble?)
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby poptart » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:05 am

Skye1013 wrote:
poptart wrote:Max Intellect possible (higher I-level PLATE and Int enchants)

Subtle...


Lol, no, not really! :) I am not known for being subtle.

Skye1013 wrote: I am wondering with 4.3 changes to HR... how much more desirable mastery will become (do we know how it affects it at this point, or is it just that HR will now stack the bubble?)


I already find Mastery pretty darn desirable....but not at the sacrifice of the 1860 Haste break point. I am turning everything I can into Mastery above 2500 Spirit and the Haste break point because I find Crit at this point to be very, very meh.

Again, in 4.3, I don't think that Mastery will be better than Haste or Spirit but I do think that it is next in line and will be the secondary stat that you are most reforging to over time. 90% of our pieces are going to have Spirit already on them and the 900 Haste rating will be pretty easy to get with just 5 or 6 of "native" Haste pieces. Maximizing Mastery at that point just makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:22 am

Ok, so I've had the chance to upgrade my gear a little and was wondering if anyone thinks my paladin is sufficiently geared to do some starter FL runs (ie. guild alt runs)? I haven't had any particular difficulties in healing trolls, though my cd usage is still fairly low, so can leave me mana tight in certain situations (ie. ZG Panther boss.)

What are some good stat numbers to shoot for before trying to get into these runs, and does anyone see any of my gear pieces that could be easily upgraded ("Aleks" in sig, I think I'm in my healing set... if not I'll try to remember to swap out tonight)?

I don't really have the drive to fully complete the MF dailies on another character, but might be convinced to knock out one set if there is one of the three that has optimal upgrades for me. Also, I've already grabbed the tanking cloak from the Thrall quest chain, so that's not an available option.

Other tidbits: I have ~30k gold, but would prefer not to have to spend huge amounts to upgrade, as it is an alt, and I don't even put that much gold into upgrading my main... Also, I don't prefer to have to grind reps, however, I am willing to run dungeons/farm for mats to get things crafted, so any rep I gain from that might get me past certain thresholds.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Amirya » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:33 am

I don't see why you couldn't start. About the only thing I'd say is keep running trolls until you've replaced the helm - I believe it's on Zanil, and the shield with the shield/offhand from either Jin'do or the Cache of Madness respectively.

At least do the MF opening questline; the necklace from the troll vendor would be an upgrade.

And the cloak is also easily replaced by the 353 BoE.

Enchant helm and cloak when upgraded.

That's about all I see.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:40 am

I figure FL rep should come quickly enough to replace my cloak, so I don't know that I'm too worried about that, unless it just happens to drop while running stuff. I do need to finish up the Hyjal pre-quests to open MF... I think I completed wolf, but still have harpy/turtle.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby rodos » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:45 pm

So long as you're not trying to 2-heal all the FL fights you should be fine. Just go and have some fun times - 4.3 is probably going to drop next week anyway, and 378+ gear will rain from the sky for HP, from LFR, and from the new heroics.

Also, going OOM on the panther boss in ZG is caused by bad groups, not your gear. I have full 378 and if people stand in the wave, don't interrupt, and take too much agro on the cats, I OOM too.
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:26 am

rodos wrote:Also, going OOM on the panther boss in ZG is caused by bad groups, not your gear. I have full 378 and if people stand in the wave, don't interrupt, and take too much agro on the cats, I OOM too.

Liberal use of HR will definitely cause that, but if I used cds, it would be even less of an issue :D.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
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Re: Holydin - PvE 4.2

Postby poptart » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:36 am

I would also echo the call that spending time and money on upgrading an alt now seems a bit of a waste...at this point you could probably be a 3rd healer for FL runs in about 350 item level gear and do just fine. 378/384 gear is going to start raining down in the next 2 weeks so I would not stress now.

So, my checklist for 4.3 is:

1. Respec to pick up Light of Dawn and glyph it. This will be the "go to" use of Holy Power in 4.3 even for 5 and 10 man content. The glyph to lower it to hitting only 4 targets but with increased power will almost always pump up its output over WoG.

2. Spec out of the talents that prop up Word of Glory and Judgement because those will be significantly downplayed with the betterment of LoD.

3. Pick your Spirit target. I would recommend at least 2500 but pick what you are comfortable with so you are not OOM on your current content. I think the change to our in combat mana regen will end up being a net plus for most Healadins (who do not Judge on CD) so 2500 may be sufficient to almost everyone.

4. Pick your Haste target. Minimum of 901 Haste rating to get the 4th tick of Holy Radiance but you need to pick what does not feel "sluggish" for you. I just recently dropped from the 1860 Haste breakpoint down to 1300ish Haste and saw my cast time for HL/DL increase from 1.9 seconds to 2.0 seconds on Quartz. I can live with that.

5. Dump everything else into Mastery. I have never been a fan of Critical Strike rating since the days of being able to guarentee a crit with Flash of Light/Sacred Shield combo in middle Wrath so I am bias against it. But I would trade out Mastery for Crit every day of the week.

That is my plan for 4.3 and we will see how it goes. I think we are going to be in a good place for 4.3.

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