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Scientists make startling discovery

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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:30 am

I meant that they published the article, never said they published their finds as facts.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:17 am

Treck wrote:I meant that they published the article, never said they published their finds as facts.


They didn't publish the article. They uploaded it to the arXiv, which makes it publicly available. Saying they "published" the paper implies it was published in a peer-reviewed journal, which isn't the case. That may seem like a subtle distinction, but it's an important one; peer-review is an important part of the scientific process, and having something published in a peer-reviewed journal indicates that other experts in the field have checked your work/methodology and decided that you haven't missed something obvious.

In some sense, by putting their results on the arXiv, they're offering it up for peer-review by everyone.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sagara » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:18 am

In WoW terms: they're beta-testing their results after F&F alpha tests, but before release?
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:20 am

Marking words now?

At the point when they made this public, they obviously didnt find a simple explanation for it.
SOMEONE published the article so people could read it, and they wouldnt have been able to do so if the team working with this project knew what was the cause of this, and since they do not they made the information public for everyone to review.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:12 pm

Treck wrote:Marking words now?

At the point when they made this public, they obviously didnt find a simple explanation for it.
SOMEONE published the article so people could read it, and they wouldnt have been able to do so if the team working with this project knew what was the cause of this, and since they do not they made the information public for everyone to review.


I'm not "marking" words. In the scientific community, "publishing" generally carries a very specific meaning - namely being submitted, accepted and printed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It implies a degree of reliability and that the results and have been scrutinized by an external reviewer.

Peer review:
The lack of peer review is what makes most technical reports and World Wide Web publications unacceptable as contributions to the literature. The relatively weak peer review often applied to books and chapters in edited books means that their status is also second-tier, unless an author's personal standing is so high that prior achievement and a continued stake in one's reputation within the scientific community signals a clear expectation of quality.

The emergence of institutional digital repositories where scholars can post their work as it is submitted to a print-based journal has taken formal peer review into a state of flux. Though publicizing a preprint online does not prevent it from being peer reviewed, it does allow an unreviewed copy to be widely circulated. On the positive side this change has led to faster dissemination of novel work within the scientific community; on the negative it has made it more difficult to discern a valid scientific contribution from the unmeritorious.


That is not the case for this work, yet - that's the entire reason they uploaded it to the arXiv for everyone to read and peer review. Hell, the very last line of the paper is a giant disclaimer:
Despite the large significance of the measurement reported here and the stability of the
analysis, the potentially great impact of the result motivates the continuation of our studies in
order to investigate possible still unknown systematic effects that could explain the observed
anomaly. We deliberately do not attempt any theoretical or phenomenological interpretation of
the results.


The ironic thing is that this is a very stupid point to argue about, because I have no doubt that they could have simply published the data in a peer-reviewed journal without any interpretation. They just chose not to, presumably because making it freely available on the arXiv will get it wider exposure and be more likely to identify their error, if one exists. If the 30 or so scientists on the paper couldn't find an error, what's the likelihood that 2-3 reviewers who have less direct knowledge of the experiment would find one?
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:32 pm

theckhd wrote:I'm not "marking" words. In the scientific community, "publishing" generally carries a very specific meaning - namely being submitted, accepted and printed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It implies a degree of reliability and that the results and have been scrutinized by an external reviewer.

English is not my native language, and i might not be the best at it, but from my knowledge "Publish" means to make it known to the public.
One word can mean a lot of things while a lot others can mean the same thing.
They made it public, nomatter how they did it, i take that as they published their findings, so others could take part in their troubleshooting.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Levantine » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:39 pm

Treck wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm not "marking" words. In the scientific community, "publishing" generally carries a very specific meaning - namely being submitted, accepted and printed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It implies a degree of reliability and that the results and have been scrutinized by an external reviewer.

English is not my native language, and i might not be the best at it, but from my knowledge "Publish" means to make it known to the public.
One word can mean a lot of things while a lot others can mean the same thing.
They made it public, nomatter how they did it, i take that as they published their findings, so others could take part in their troubleshooting.

You'd be 100% wrong in the science world. Publish has a very specific meaning in this instance, and what they have done isn't publishing.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:44 pm

Treck wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm not "marking" words. In the scientific community, "publishing" generally carries a very specific meaning - namely being submitted, accepted and printed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It implies a degree of reliability and that the results and have been scrutinized by an external reviewer.

English is not my native language, and i might not be the best at it, but from my knowledge "Publish" means to make it known to the public.
One word can mean a lot of things while a lot others can mean the same thing.
They made it public, nomatter how they did it, i take that as they published their findings, so others could take part in their troubleshooting.


Yeah just to echo what theck and Lev already pointed out, since English is not your native language, this is a nuance you may not be aware of. "Publish" has a specific jargon meaning for the scientific community which doesn't mean what you're taking it to mean.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Jeremoot » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:22 pm

Treck wrote:English is not my native language, and i might not be the best at it, but from my knowledge "Publish" means to make it known to the public.
One word can mean a lot of things while a lot others can mean the same thing.
They made it public, nomatter how they did it, i take that as they published their findings, so others could take part in their troubleshooting.



This reminds me of people who take theory in "theory of evolution" too literally.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Koatanga » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:03 pm

You would figure that people smart enough to unravel the secrets of the universe would be capable of creating terms to describe what they actually mean.

But I guess if they could adequately express themselves, they'd be dating and having offspring instead of unravelling the secrets of the universe...

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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Dantriges » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:12 pm

There are quite a lot of cases where one word has different meanings.

And probably every social circle invents its own jargon.

Let´s say for eample you talk with a fellow WoW player, describe your PuG experience and someone unfamiliar with the game hears something like this:

"And then after the raid entered Firelands, the tank discoed and we wiped on the first trash mob."

He would have no idea what you are talking about and probably think WoW is some crazy thing. :wink: What kind of tank? Abrams, Leopard, Bradley? And he went to a disco and so you had to clean the trash? Are you in the army? Isn´t raid a special forces thing? And Firelands? Is that a codeword for a military theater? :D

And well what should scientists use as a different word? Until a few decades ago, publish in usual english meant Publish in science english, because there was nothing like upload for public scrutiny. And I don´t think that there is a scientific organisation with enough influence to make up a new word and say "krivitz is the new published for peer review."
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Dantriges wrote:What kind of tank? Abrams, Leopard, Bradley?


fish? gas?
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby Dantriges » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:41 am

Oil tank, upgrades to oil tanker later on the ultimate super tanker.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby halabar » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:14 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Treck wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm not "marking" words. In the scientific community, "publishing" generally carries a very specific meaning - namely being submitted, accepted and printed in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. It implies a degree of reliability and that the results and have been scrutinized by an external reviewer.

English is not my native language, and i might not be the best at it, but from my knowledge "Publish" means to make it known to the public.
One word can mean a lot of things while a lot others can mean the same thing.
They made it public, nomatter how they did it, i take that as they published their findings, so others could take part in their troubleshooting.


Yeah just to echo what theck and Lev already pointed out, since English is not your native language, this is a nuance you may not be aware of. "Publish" has a specific jargon meaning for the scientific community which doesn't mean what you're taking it to mean.


Yep.

In this case they have "released" the information, which means - "We found something odd and neat, it might mean this, but we might have fucked up".

If they "publish" the information, that means - "We have found this and this, and it means this and this, and we stake our reputations and potentially our careers on it".

In government jargon, this would be an the release of a proposal by an "unnamed source" to gauge reaction prior to the politician announcing it as an official policy statement.
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Re: Scientists make startling discovery

Postby rodos » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:06 pm

I might be showing my ignorance here, but is it really possible to synchronize clocks and measure distances with this amount of accuracy over a distance of several hundred km?

I guess 60 light-nanoseconds is about 18m, which is well within the resolution accuracy of GPS, so accurate distance measurement is unlikely be the problem, but what about the time? Wikipedia claims GPS can get you about 10ns accuracy on a time reading, which still seems like a lot of uncertainty on a 60ns measurement. Is clock sync done some other way, like by physically taking your atomic clock from one location to the other (at a non-relativistic speed to avoid time dilation)?

What about gravitational field variation due to different altitudes/earth radius at each location, or different crust density? What about frame dragging caused by the earth's rotation? Would any of those things create a time dilation large enough to be measurable? (Either in the experiment itself or in the GPS.)

To my mind, the only way to remove all doubt from these results would be to have an evacuated tube between the locations and fire a laser down that at the same time as the neutrino burst and measure them in a head-to-head race. Maybe we should build a neutrino detector on the moon and an orbiting particle accelerator.
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