{25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Chicken » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:28 pm

PsiVen wrote:We also discovered on our kill last night that there's apparently a 20M threat cap on Majordomo and the melee were catching up to me at the end of the fight. I've never noticed this before -- is there really a hard cap on maximum threat?
Was it exactly 20 million or a bit more than that? If it was 21.4 million or something along those lines, it's likely the same reason as the old gold cap. I know for a fact that internally the threat values are integers at least, and to still allow a bit of extra precision the internal threat values are 100 times higher than what mods normally report. 21.4 million threat as reported by a mod displaying your threat would indicate it's a signed 32-bit integer, and the maximum size of one of those is 2147483647.

It would explain the hotfix to reduce all threat generated on him at least, I was wondering what was up with that.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:10 pm

All bosses have a threat cap.
And yes its 20million, or if you want 20.000.000 threat.
Ive asked GMs to forward it to the developers but apparently "these things can take time".
And according to him its been the same since forever, its just never been a "problem" before since all the numbers were lower.

There were few bosses you would reach the cap at, but on halfus i always reached the cap.
In firelands, Your going to easily threatcap yourself on Majordomo, Alyzrazor (both on the boss and the hatchlings) and Ragnaros.
And after the resent threatchanges, pretty much every boss but ryolith.
And yes, you easily reach the cap after the changes, since your threat wasnt amplified by concentration anyway.
The main reason for the hotfix was cuz dpsers were doing twice the threat as any normal fight, meaning that the first 30sec is really annoying to keep threat at, and it actually is a slight problem the whole fight.

On most fights its not an issue, noone can overaggro you anyway, since you need 110% threat to overtake it, and since you cant go over the cap, it stays on you.
Majordomo does pose a different problem as when your capped, and people are close to your threat, they can choose to go for someone else if your not in meele range when the add spawns.
I try to always spamm RD on the adds, since you wont waste it if the add reaches you.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Kihra » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:27 pm

Treck wrote:All bosses have a threat cap.
And yes its 20million, or if you want 20.000.000 threat.
Ive asked GMs to forward it to the developers but apparently "these things can take time".
And according to him its been the same since forever, its just never been a "problem" before since all the numbers were lower.

There were few bosses you would reach the cap at, but on halfus i always reached the cap.
In firelands, Your going to easily threatcap yourself on Majordomo, Alyzrazor (both on the boss and the hatchlings) and Ragnaros.
And after the resent threatchanges, pretty much every boss but ryolith.
And yes, you easily reach the cap after the changes, since your threat wasnt amplified by concentration anyway.
The main reason for the hotfix was cuz dpsers were doing twice the threat as any normal fight, meaning that the first 30sec is really annoying to keep threat at, and it actually is a slight problem the whole fight.

On most fights its not an issue, noone can overaggro you anyway, since you need 110% threat to overtake it, and since you cant go over the cap, it stays on you.
Majordomo does pose a different problem as when your capped, and people are close to your threat, they can choose to go for someone else if your not in meele range when the add spawns.
I try to always spamm RD on the adds, since you wont waste it if the add reaches you.


That's great info! Looking at my logs I see that the cats only started hitting other melee after they had hit the 20 million damage mark to tie me at the threat cap. So my theory about rooting was wrong. It's just that we're now tied for threat, and the melee are in range of the cats when they spawn.

On the plus side it means I don't have to think about taunting the cats for about 6 minutes... until a DPS actually does 20 million to Majordomo. :)
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Darielle » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:09 pm

Could anyone confirm that Leaping Flames reads specs when determining jumps?


It's definitely based on spec. I can't confirm that he won't leap on melee who aren't actually in melee range though (because, well, 99% of the time melee are in melee range).
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Thark » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:38 am

I could use a little help here with 2 things:

1 - Burning Orbs. Maybe every 10 attempts we don't lose someone to the orbs. I'm tired of hearing how "bad luck" it is. We're using 4 ranged teams, 3 of which have a healer, and 1 melee team. We used to use 5, but it wasn't going well so we shifted to having me and 1 melee soak an orb. We have 4 orb teams with a player marked assigned to orbs and they generally get to an orb pretty well, but it's pretty much a constant that every attempt there is a group of 3 orbs or something else that kills one player, and it just chains from there into a wipe.

2 - DPS. We've hit the enrage timer a few times. Once was with 1 player DC'ed most of the fight and at 13% with 6 healers. The other was with a few dead, 5 healers, and about 15%. Dropping to 5 healers has resulted in the tank dying a fair bit every time someone has to move, which happens a lot. I just see no discussion because most threads focus on 10man where they don't worry about it. Is it helpful to have ranged at max range? Does this force melee to stand around too much while waiting for him to run back in? We're taking 7 jumps, and 1 slash every other scorpion. With everyone alive we're just on pace to beat enrage, but as noted above it's pretty rare that we aren't losing players to the burning orbs, and with such a tight enrage for us we can't throw more players at the orbs and not be concerned about the enrage. I think we've hit on all the easy DPS gains, but I'm thinking that strategically we're just doing something wrong to be that far behind. I'm wondering if he's spending too much time running and its limiting our DPS time or something similar.

Any help with ideas to better handle burning orbs or up DPS a little bit would be appreciated. Right now it feels like we'd have him with a perfect attempt, but by a very thin margin, and we haven't had that attempt where everything lines up.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby warden » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:55 am

1. For orbs, we pair a healer and a dps as orb soakers. This ensures each pair always have a dedicated healer, and minimizes the number of ranged losing concentration to orb ticks. We have 4 teams dedicated to taking the orb closest to a pre-place raid marker and a 5th swing team that handles the bad spawns that either double up, or are not close to anything. Ranged with a way to reset the stacks or mitigate damage if something goes wrong and both people end up with 3-4 stacks are prefered (spriest, hunter, mage). If one spawns near the middle, the two tanks soak it, freeing up the swing team.

2. One thing that helped us was that both our disc priests went smite spec, chipping in about 12k dps each. They really only needed to heal during orbs. Our reso sham went whatever their hybrid dps spec is as well, and also chipped in about 10k dps ("Currents" spec, IIRC). We did 2 tank heroic, and are not taking any slashes or gimicking the orbs. Also, don't forget to use bops, etc to keep high-dps range from losing concentration due to orbs, etc. The biggest thing for us was keeping people alive. If everyone survived the orbs phases, we had no issues with the enrage.

3. For tank deaths, make sure healers aren't forgetting to use their cooldowns (the tank should call for these)... many times, barriers, PS, or holy pally HoS weren't being used well or at all. We 2 tank it using a DK MT and warrior OT for the kitties, and it seriously drops the damage by splitting that up. We found it was actually a dps increase to do this, as before soakers were dying because healers were having to focus too much on the tanks. I've never had a threat issue on the cats with the 2 tank setup (not sure if that is relevent or not), but then again, I'm usually only doing 50-52k for the fight (ret); that might not be enought to hit 20 mil (never really paid attention to it).

4. Also confirming the leaping flames by spec thing.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Thark » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:05 am

Using 5 healers we could only assign 3 to orbs, otherwise we do it pretty similarly. We've gone back and forth on a flex team, but generally ask ranged to help out in the beginning as things get situated. I like your suggestion of raid markers though. It's a little help.

I'll bring up the suggestion about smite spec disc. I know that some healers are telling me they are bored when we 6 heal, but when we 5 heal they complain about being OOM and I'm just dying to melee hits. Some hybrid spec was something I wanted to try, and that sounds like a real good option. The 6th healer is really only helpful during the orbs as you point out.

I haven't heard much about the 2 tank strategy you mention. I single tank it, and until last night I was generally only dying if I missed a CD during a flame scythe. I'm not sure what the problem was last night, but I think roughly 20% of our attempts ended with my death due to melee hits when one of my two healers had to move. That generally doesn't happen.

What raid comp do you end up with? It sounds like you use 2 tanks, 3 healers, 3 healers with half-DPS Specs, ~6 ranged and ~11 melee? I think we've been using 1 tank, 5 healers, 11-13 melee and 6-8 ranged. Respeccing a healer and adding a tank is at least something different for us to try. Thanks a bunch for your suggestions. I really appreciate it.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby Darielle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:25 am

Setting up and using Immunities on the Orbs is definitely worth it. Beyond just the usual Iceblock and Bubble, Deterrence (which can be used twice with Readiness) and Dispersion also work for that purpose.
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Re: {25 HM} Majordomo Staghelm

Postby warden » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:02 pm

Glad to help, let me get you some logs. I'm going to grab you some earlier ones, as the later ones we've kinda just brute-forced by outgearing it.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/dvvc ... 025&e=4594 This one is a poor performance by me, but it shows the two discs and the resto sham's contribution to the fight. I might have a video of this one laying around too, if that helps1--I think this was our progression kill.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2obp ... 07&e=18790 Here is a later one, using 5 pure healers and no hybrid specs, for comparison.
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