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Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:24 am

IMO:

969: It wasn't interesting. it was CD restricted it was passive. But, it allowed me to become a better raid leader. I was able to focus on what needed to happen during the fight. i was able to get better at timing the use of CD's, and using hand spells. 969 as a basis was very boring, but allowed for much more raid awareness / CD management focus than say... .tanking on a warrior.

Holy power: It isn't any more interesting. It doesn't remove the CD based structure of the Prot Paladin. To me, Holy Power just added this "idea" of complexity to a Prot Paladin rotation that changed more based on the new CD's and new ability (crusader strike) than it did because of the implementation of holy power. Holy Power has an incredibly binary feel to it. You do this to gain it, you do this or this to spend it. It feels very limited, with very little "real" choice introduced. There is the illusion of choice, but when you get down to the details, There is a 1 right choice and 1 to 2 wrong choices on what to use your holy power on based on the situation.

To me, Holy Power is window dressing. The Paladin's overpowered self healing model to start didn't help matters any. It gives an illusion of choice, but not much more than that.

I just don't see where Holy power added anything to the class that would be any different if we put a 9-12 second cooldown on SotR, and kept the 20 second CD on WoG. Holy Power didn't change anything really. Its just new packaging.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Mukat » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:43 am

Something they could do to holy power to make it interesting is to remove the 3 point system and basically rip off runic power. All holy power moves (save for prot ones) fully drain the meter (100 max points maybe) and the amount of holy power used to fuel the move determine its effectiveness. Have holy power generate slowly automatically in combat (1/sec or something like that) and have other moves generate more, based on spec and talents (zealotry doubles all holy power gains, crits for ret and holy generate double, block/dodge/parry for prot generates a modest amount). Have most heals/buffs/cleanses/"spells" use mana, other skills use holy power. Spells would include holy wrath and consecrate, which need to be limited by more than just a cooldown.

I haven't put as much thought into it as I could, but off the top of my head, this sounds interesting. Maybe not original, but a paladin building zeal during combat packs the right flavor, and using that zeal or conviction to smite his enemies or bolster his allies leads in the right direction.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:05 pm

Could be as simple as removing the cooldown from Crusader Strike, letting HP accumulate to 5, and giving every Paladin tanking ability increasing results/effectiveness based on the number of HP consumed when an ability is used.

i.e. make us plate-wearing rogues.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby tlitp » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:37 pm

Malthrax wrote:(...) make us plate-wearing rogues.

Are you sure that you'd be better off ? 4.2 Rogues do have quite a few issues, both conceptual and functional. :P
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:34 pm

theckhd wrote:[*]If I use a SotR now, will I have enough time to build up another 3 HP before the cooldown is up?

The answer to that question is "no" because we cannot possibly predict when we are going to have an unlucky string of misses/parries that would deny us Holy Power charges and hence nerf WoG. That is assuming you are not hit/expertise capped.

You would want to use SotR with 3 HP charges, which would be at least 9 seconds since you last burned Holy Power, leaving 11 seconds on your WoG cooldown, assuming that was your last HP use (which, if WoG is mandatory, it would have been). One or two missed/parried Crusader Strikes in that 11 seconds means you won't have the HP for a full WoG.

So if WoG is mandatory, then you would never use SotR because of the possibility of not having the HP charges when you need to use WoG.

As for me? Well, I'm a bad tank. I actually use SotR. I use WoG when there's bust damage or a healer issue.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Koatanga wrote:
theckhd wrote:[*]If I use a SotR now, will I have enough time to build up another 3 HP before the cooldown is up?

The answer to that question is "no" because we cannot possibly predict when we are going to have an unlucky string of misses/parries that would deny us Holy Power charges and hence nerf WoG. That is assuming you are not hit/expertise capped.

You would want to use SotR with 3 HP charges, which would be at least 9 seconds since you last burned Holy Power, leaving 11 seconds on your WoG cooldown, assuming that was your last HP use (which, if WoG is mandatory, it would have been). One or two missed/parried Crusader Strikes in that 11 seconds means you won't have the HP for a full WoG.

So if WoG is mandatory, then you would never use SotR because of the possibility of not having the HP charges when you need to use WoG.

As for me? Well, I'm a bad tank. I actually use SotR. I use WoG when there's bust damage or a healer issue.


Or you're just bad at reading comprehension. At no point did I make this assertion you keep repeating that WoG is mandatory, which you seem to think means "must use on cooldown."
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Jeremoot » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:32 pm

Koatanga wrote:
theckhd wrote:[*]If I use a SotR now, will I have enough time to build up another 3 HP before the cooldown is up?

The answer to that question is "no" because we cannot possibly predict when we are going to have an unlucky string of misses/parries that would deny us Holy Power charges and hence nerf WoG. That is assuming you are not hit/expertise capped.


Binomial probability density functions. LUA interpretation of Matlabadin code:

Code: Select all
function factorial(n)
  if n == 0 then
    return 1;
  else
    return n * factorial(n - 1);
  end
end

function binopdf(x,n,p)
  if n < x then
    return 0;
  else
    local binomial = ((x == 0 or x == n) and 1 or factorial(n) / (factorial(x) * factorial((n - x))));
    return (binomial * math.pow(p, x) * math.pow((1 - p), (n - x)));
  end
end

---------------------------------------------------------------------

function FinisherTime()
  local x = 0;
  local y = 0;
  for i = 2,9 do
    x = x + (Hit() * binopdf(2, i, Hit()) * 3 * (i + 1));
    y = y + (Hit() * binopdf(2, i, Hit()));
  end
  return (x / y);
end


With a few hundred iterations it gives us a pretty accurate representation of unlucky misses. Matlabadin also has snippets to predict the amount of HoPo expected from Grand Crusader. C# interpretation following:

Code: Select all
float GC_Q(float p, int t = 2)
{
    float n = 1 - (0.1f * t);
    return ((float)(binopdf(0, 3, p) +
        (binopdf(1, 3, p) * n) +
        (binopdf(2, 3, p) * Math.Pow(n, 2)) +
        (binopdf(3, 3, p) * Math.Pow(n, 3))));
}
float GC_P(float p, int t = 2) { return 1 - GC_Q(p, t); }


Where p is the probability of melee success rate, and t is the number of talent points into Grand Crusader.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby poptart » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:35 am

I have to agree with Shoju on this one: Holy Power has given Paladins the illusion of choice with a "new" package/resource.....but they could have accomplished all that they did with Holy Power within our "old" mana paradiem as well by just adjusting CDs....which is what we had before Holy Power.

For Healadins, the Holy Power USE model is just not compelling. In reality, all Holy Power does for Healadins is change the mana usage model.

5 of our heals use mana (FoL, HL, DL, HS, HR) and 2 of our heals do not (WoG, LoD). You could easily achieve the same spell usage and mana usage solely by adjusting CDs on WoG and LoD and all healing mana cost; Holy Power is not really required.

I even think those spells "fit" into the toolkit well with Holy Shock being the "smallish" instant heal every 6 seconds and WoG being a "bigger" instance heal on, say, a 15 second CD. LoD is just a different shaped AoE heal then Holy Radiance. All the tools could easily have been adjusted for with CD and mana cost to continue to make Paladins the "CD" healer (as opposed to the bubble healer, the HoT healer, the AoE healer or the totem healer).

I still think that Healadins have the best Holy Power GENERATION model in that we can generate Holy Power with 3 different actions (cast Holy Shock, cast Crusader Strike, heal the Beacon target with FoL/DL) or 2 different passive abilities (Blessed Life and Eternal Glory). But our USE model is weak and really puts us back in the camp of "why do we have Holy Power?" It could have been acomplished with a CD / mana cost model just as easily.

Now, if they introduced to Healadins a USE model along the lines of Ret in that Holy Power fuels: (1) single-target heal, (2) Multi-target heal, (3) a HoT, (4) a CD (perhaps Divine Favor?), and (5) a Buff (Conviction?) AND ensure that the strength of heals are equal at 25/10/5 man encounters between LoD and WoG so that either is the "right" solution AND that timing is such that to do your job well that you need to spend Holy Power on at least 3 of the choices (Buff, HoT, and one of the heals) then all my arguments go away and we have a really useful secondary resource.

But, as long as Holy Power only fuels, at best, an either/or choice or, at worse, no choice (LoD for 25-man encounters, WoG for 10-man and smaller encounters) then I don't find the model compelling.

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:51 am

Does any other class in the game have to juggle three different ability-use gating mechanics (mana, holy power, cooldown timers) simultaneously?

edit: for what would be considered "primary rotational abilities", that is. sure, everyone's got a CD here and there, but I'm asking about classes that have 90+% of their "button presses" being gated by three resources.
Last edited by Malthrax on Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby lythac » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:02 am

Malthrax wrote:Does any other class in the game have to juggle three different ability-use gating mechanics (mana, holy power, cooldown timers) simultaneously?


Pretty sure if I were any good on my TG warrior I would have to juggle rage, procs and cooldown timers. And rage has a greater affect than a Prot Paladins mana.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:14 am

Mana doesn't end up being that significant a gating mechanic for us most of the time, especially now that JotW can't miss. For single-target, it just acts as a floodgate for Consecration/Holy Wrath/Holy Radiance usage. For AoE, it just enforces that you have to keep casting Judgement once in a while, or else be tanking multiple mobs to increase Sanctuary returns.

I mean, it's there, but you don't end up thinking about it much (or at least, I don't).

Other classes have 3 resources though, and in many cases three real resources.
DKs have runes, runic power, and cooldown timers
Warlocks have mana, cooldown timers, soul shards (some specs).
Fury warriors have rage and cooldown timers, as well as an Enrage resource mechanic.

I'm sure there are others as well. If you treat debuff management (i.e. keeping up demo shout and tclap) as a resource mechanic instead of a cooldown timer, then prot warriors and feral druids qualify too. We basically have no debuff management to speak of, since Vindication and JotJ are both automatic.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:41 am

I will freely admit now that this turned into a wall of text that moves from 3 resources, back to the HP is shallow debate, and kind of rambles on from there. I'm hoping that my rambling makes sense to people other than myself, and that it helps to illustrate the main point that I have had in this whole conversation about Holy Power, and my frustration with it.


theckhd wrote:Mana doesn't end up being that significant a gating mechanic for us most of the time, especially now that JotW can't miss. For single-target, it just acts as a floodgate for Consecration/Holy Wrath/Holy Radiance usage. For AoE, it just enforces that you have to keep casting Judgement once in a while, or else be tanking multiple mobs to increase Sanctuary returns.

I mean, it's there, but you don't end up thinking about it much (or at least, I don't).

Other classes have 3 resources though, and in many cases three real resources.
DKs have runes, runic power, and cooldown timers
Warlocks have mana, cooldown timers, soul shards (some specs).
Fury warriors have rage and cooldown timers, as well as an Enrage resource mechanic.

I'm sure there are others as well. If you treat debuff management (i.e. keeping up demo shout and tclap) as a resource mechanic instead of a cooldown timer, then prot warriors and feral druids qualify too. We basically have no debuff management to speak of, since Vindication and JotJ are both automatic.


I'm going to disagree with you on Death Knights having three resources to manage. Cooldown timers? Cooldown timers on a DK (and from what I have seen on warlocks and Fury Warriors) are NOTHING like the cooldowns that a paladin uses.

I will still with Death Knight though, because I know them inside and out now.

Spells with Cooldowns

Rune Tap
Blood Tap
Death Pact
Raise Dead
Raise Ally
Army of the Dead
vampiric Blood
Icebound Fortitude
Anti-Magic Shell
Empower Rune Weapon
Death Grip
Dark Command
Mind Freeze
Death and Decay
Outbreak
Dark Simulacrum
Lichborne
Dancing Rune Weapon
Bone Shield
Strangulate

At first glance, that looks like a TON of spells on Cooldown for a Death Knight. But, Lets examine the spells

Rune Tap, Death Pact, Raise Dead, Vampiric Blood, IBF, AMS, Lichborne, DRW, and Bone Shield are all Defensive / Active "Cooldowns" Similar to Div Prot, Gank, WoG, LoH.

So that takes us down to

Rune Tap
Raise Ally
Army of teh Dead
Empower Rune Weapon
Death Grip
Dark Command
Death and Decay
Outbreak
Dark Sim
Strangulate

From this list, we will remove the taunt and interrupts,

Dark Command, Death Grip, Mind Freeze, Strangulate. These are similar to Hand of Reckoning, Rigtheous Defense (oh I wish Death grip were RD every day), Rebuke, and.... Well, we get an extra super long CD interrupt in Strangulate that only works as an interrupt on certain bosses. This wuold I guess be similar to paladins having an extra interrupt worked into Avenger's Shield

This leaves the list at

Rune Tap
Raise ally
Army of the Dead
Empower Rune Weapon
Death and Decay
Outbreak
Dark Sim

This is where the Death Knights using CD's as resource management falls apart for me. The rest of these abilities that I'm looking at here for a death knight do not comprise the core of my offensive rotation.

They help, I will not debate that point. BUT
-Rune Tap is a free rune every 30 seconds that normally gets rolled into other cooldowns.
-Raise ally is a very weak BRez
-Army of the Dead is a Very weird cooldown. Incredibly situational. It can help, or it can wipe you.
-Empower Rune Weapon. 5 min CD. Truly amazing.
-Death adn Decay. You can cross this over to the paladin's consecration, even though we use it more often than most paladins use Cons.
-Outbreak currently gives me the ability to put my tank debuffs back up (if it doesn't miss) once a minute for free. This will be changing soon
-Dark Sim. An incredibly situational ability that has very little "real use" inside a raiding situation.

Almost every spell for a Death Knight Tank that is on a CD is a situational / emergency use type cooldown. I'm not working with cooldowns to ensure that my rotation doesn't clash, and that I have things to do. A paladin's very threat rotation is cooldown locked.

CS / Hammer
AS
Cons
HW
Judge

are all on Cooldowns. The one ability that isn't, SoR needs you to perform multiple CD'd abilities to be functional. This is what I mean by cooldowns as a resource. You will never Hammer back to back GCD's, because you Can't. I can however, Blood Boil Back to back, or Death Strike back to back, or heart strike back to back if the need arises.

Yes, part of this is because of the difference in resources. part of this is that my resource pool is finite and recharges, while the paladins is seemingly endless.

But, and maybe this is where I erred as a paladin, I had hopes that Holy Power would remove the CD's on core rotational abilties like CD, Hammer, Judge, etc... and use them as building blocks towards HP finishing moves. More akin to Sinister Strike, Hemo, Mut, Etc... fueling the Combo Points for the Rogues finishing moves.

Holy Power as it is feels very much like Combo Points, but without the depth, and without the synergy with the secondary resource for the class.

My personal feeling of Holy Power feeling "tacked on", stems from
Runes and Runic Power work together, fueling each other, building off each other.
Combo Points are restricted by your energy, and based on talents, can fuel and build off each other "similarly" to Runes and RP (I say similar because there used to be talents that would return energy / combo points based on finishing moves. I'm unsure if they are still in game. I haven't played a rogue in a VERY long time)

The current implementation of Holy Power if put to use on a DK would be similar to this:
I use my runes to perform abilities. These abilities generate Runic Power. If Runic Power were as limited as Holy power, My only options for Runic Power would be Rune Strike and Rune Tap as a Blood Dk.

Instead, even though "most" of my RP ends up going to Rune Strikes as a DK, there are a HOST of abilities that I can use that require Runic Power. Everything from Cooldowns, to Attacks, to my Brez.

Every class will look like they are juggling cooldowns as a 2nd / 3rd resource mechanic if you look at them in the right light. The truth of the matter, is that no classes core moves are as CD locked as a Prot Paladin. I mean, MAYBE you could use arms / fury warriors as an example, but, I'm not sure how accurate of a comparison that is.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:52 am

Fury warriors are about as cooldown-locked as we are, in my experience. I don't know enough about arms to comment on that spec.

That said, what I got out of that whole thing is that "cooldowns are a minor resource for DKs," since all they seem to limit is Death and Decay and some situational abilities.

In the same fashion, mana is a minor resource for Prot. It only modulates Consecration/Holy Wrath usage and some situational abilities (Holy Radiance, primarily). Holy power and cooldowns are the two big resources, analogous to Runic Power and Runes on a Death Knight.

I don't think it's fair to pretend we have 3 major resource management tasks when mana is such a minor concern, especially if you're willing to overlook minor resource mechanics for the other classes (cooldowns for DKs, buff/debuff management, etc.). To me, it seems like that's grossly exaggerating the importance of the "mana" resource for the sake of supporting the argument.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:30 am

I'm not saying that mana is a Major resource, or that paladins have 3 mahor resources. I'm saying that I had hoped, And from the way others have talked I assume they hoped as well, that Holy Power was going to rid Paladins of this Cooldown Driven ideology, where every single ability they have is directly tied to a cooldown. That was... "the hope" of Holy Power. There would be some "challenge" into doing the rotation right, or hitting the "right" button, not "hit the buttons in this order so that you don't clash on your ability CD's, and oh yeah, when this lights up with 3 lights, hit this button if it isn't on CD. If it is on CD, and not going to be up soon, Hit this one.

The Hope of Holy Power was to introduce complexity and the chance to "fail" at the rotation into playing a Protection Paladin. In the end, it gave protection paladins 3 new buttons (CS / INQ / WoG ) and took the CD off of one button (SoR). Instead of making the play of a paladin less "faceroll", we still get automatic tank debuffs that are just "tacked" onto the normal DPS buttons that we hit for a threat rotation, a CD locked rotation, and 3 yellow lights.

For a death knight, there is the real possibility that you can do things wrong. The hope for Holy Power was that it would introduce a way for Theck, Trek, Sab, etc... to further improve their play due to the mechanics. I feel it failed.

For me, Holy Power was kind of like that guy who takes the mediocre looking classic car that kinda runs ok, and tossing a set of ten thousand dollar tires and rims on it. It sure does look pretty, and maybe the new tires and rims add a little "something" extra to the drive, but really, the engine behind it all didn't change.
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