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Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:52 am

Koatanga wrote:
theckhd wrote:So, the abilities are optional, except for the situations where they're actually useful. That's not a very useful rule of thumb. You could say that about any survivability cooldown. Hell, "SotR is optional, except when that extra 30k damage matters" is basically the same statement, and equally as meaningless.

The fact that Holy Shield and Divine Protection are stronger cooldowns doesn't make WoG any less powerful.

I don't know why you insist on being deliberately obtuse and playing semantics games with me. I just don't see the point of it, or how it is in any way productive.

I credit you with far too much intelligence to be dumb enough to miss my point that if we had Holy Shield and Judgements of the Just using Holy Power it would be far more compelling than choosing (or apparently not choosing since optimal WoG use is always mandatory) between SotR and WoG.

If you disagree, how about hearing what your version of an interesting active mitigation model would be like?

I'm not disputing the point that HP would be more compelling if it gave us more choices, particularly between different types of survivability (i.e. WoG vs. Holy Shield).

What I'm suggesting is that you (and to be fair, many others in this thread) are downplaying the influence of WoG to make general statements about the current state of Holy Power. Trying to pass WoG off as "optional" isn't a legitimate argument, because under the right circumstances it's a very powerful survivability cooldown. It's like saying that Holy Shield is optional, because you can kill bosses without it. Sure you can, but that doesn't change the fact that by using it properly you get a very real, measurable increase in survivability. And on content that matters, that's important. The same is true for WoG.

So even though the Holy Power choice is currently "DPS vs. Survivability," there are still decisions that should be going on in the back of your head while you're playing:
  • What's the remaining cooldown on WoG?
  • If I use a SotR now, will I have enough time to build up another 3 HP before the cooldown is up?
  • Will I need WoG that soon, or can I relax a bit?
  • Does the boss have a hard-hitting ability coming up that I want to counter with WoG?
  • Are my healers moving? Will they be in a few seconds?
All of those things may dictate how you spend Holy Power. You may choose to sit on it instead of SotR if you expect to need it for WoG in a few seconds, or you know that your healers are going to have to move and won't be able to give you full throughput. On the other hand, you might decide that you're relatively safe at the moment and can afford to take advantage of a Sacred Duty proc.

Is it as compelling as having two survivability options to choose from? Of course not, and I don't think I've ever said it was. But it does mean that Holy Power is far from a meaningless resource. If you're abstracting the problem to the level of "have 3 HoPo, use WoG if HP<50%, else SotR" then you might come to that conclusion. But I don't think that degree of abstraction is appropriate, because it inherently glosses over a large number of factors that should be going into your decision making. A tank that's using that level of abstraction to dictate their Holy Power usage isn't playing optimally, and it's not fair to base the criticism of Holy Power on the least common denominator.

For another example, when I started playing a Rogue alt, I made the mistake of using abilities as soon as I had enough energy. That meant that I was frequently using SS to get a 5th combo point, and then waiting several seconds before I could use it, by which point the target may have died. I didn't "get" the resource-pooling model at first, because all I had seen was classes with larger, long-term resources like mana and cooldowns. I had to do some research to figure out I was "doin' it wrong." Would it be fair to say that "energy and combo points aren't a compelling resource" based on my initial assessment of the class, which clearly ignored the fine details that make those resources interesting?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:55 am

Malthrax wrote:If you don't need it, WoG is overheal.
If you do need it, your healers are slacking, failing, or in way over their heads.

In either case, the 20 second cooldown is a far larger driving factor in WoG's usability. Its ties to Holy Power are mostly meaningless.


That's a gross oversimplification. Encounter mechanics do force healers to move, other players can make mistakes that require their immediate attention, and sometimes you just get an unlucky string of hits at a bad time. As convenient as it might be to blame the healers for everything, it reads to me as "I'd rather wipe and blame someone else than use the tools I'm given to prevent it and turn that attempt into a kill."
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Malthrax » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:01 am

theckhd wrote:
Malthrax wrote:If you don't need it, WoG is overheal.
If you do need it, your healers are slacking, failing, or in way over their heads.

In either case, the 20 second cooldown is a far larger driving factor in WoG's usability. Its ties to Holy Power are mostly meaningless.


That's a gross oversimplification. Encounter mechanics do force healers to move, other players can make mistakes that require their immediate attention, and sometimes you just get an unlucky string of hits at a bad time. As convenient as it might be to blame the healers for everything, it reads to me as "I'd rather wipe and blame someone else than use the tools I'm given to prevent it and turn that attempt into a kill."


If encounter mechanics force healers to stop healing long enough that a 20-second CD self heal is that important, then what do raids with Warrior, Druid, or DeathKnight tanks do? Wipe? Make the healers coordinate their movement better?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:12 am

Possibly, yes? That's like saying AD is not worth using, because the other tank classes can't save themselves from a death, so clearly the game is balanced around not having AD available so it's not an important CD. You're also suggesting that all the other tank classes have the exact same avoidance/mitigation profiles and the same toolset with the exception of (in this case) WoG, which is obviously incorrect. Every class has survival CDs to cover moments of increased risk, WoG is just another of them, albeit not necessarily an incredibly strong one (edit: but being available every 20 seconds, it obviously wouldn't be "incredibly strong").

Edit: I certainly don't use WoG on CD; in fact I barely use it at all now, on farm, and even on progression this tier it's not seen an enormous amount of use (certainly not close to using it on CD) - but it's certainly got its situational uses.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:26 am

Malthrax wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Malthrax wrote:If you don't need it, WoG is overheal.
If you do need it, your healers are slacking, failing, or in way over their heads.

In either case, the 20 second cooldown is a far larger driving factor in WoG's usability. Its ties to Holy Power are mostly meaningless.


That's a gross oversimplification. Encounter mechanics do force healers to move, other players can make mistakes that require their immediate attention, and sometimes you just get an unlucky string of hits at a bad time. As convenient as it might be to blame the healers for everything, it reads to me as "I'd rather wipe and blame someone else than use the tools I'm given to prevent it and turn that attempt into a kill."


If encounter mechanics force healers to stop healing long enough that a 20-second CD self heal is that important, then what do raids with Warrior, Druid, or DeathKnight tanks do? Wipe? Make the healers coordinate their movement better?


You do realize that 2-3 seconds of movement is "long enough" to create that situation, right? That happens all the time, especially if you're under-healing a fight to meet a DPS requirement.

Presumably, the other tanks have to burn a "real" cooldown to handle that situation. That's one of the reasons that Mel has been so adamant about us being overpowered this tier - where other classes require a cooldown to survive, we can often get away with WoG or Holy Shield. Those two "disposable" cooldowns give us a pretty big advantage.

I can't put it in better words than he has:
Meloree wrote:I’ve been accused on being the only person on the planet who considers WoG a game-breaking survival cooldown. That’s okay, though, because I’m still right about it. Good use of WoG requires some foresight. You need to be in touch with the rhythm of the encounter, and when things might start to go wrong, so you can bank up your holy power – but being able to drop 30-35k health onto yourself on demand is amazingly good. Are you low on health because healers moving? Most of the time 30k is the difference between “die on next swing” and “live through it”. Living through one more swing is pretty awesome. It’s especially awesome when it can be done every 20 seconds.



<edit> Rhi beat me to it, but...
To rephrase your statement,
"If encounter mechanics force healers to stop healing long enough that a 3-minute CD Guardian Spirit effect is that important, than what do raids with Warr/Druid/DK tanks do?"
AD can be a game-breaker on certain encounters too. Consider Chimaeron phase 3 - AD buys you another 5 seconds or so, which can easily be the difference between a kill or a wipe. Or Majordomo Staghelm, where being able to cooldown every other Flame Scythe buys your raid ~5 seconds of DPS time per Scythe. Or Baleroc, where AD not only works as a mitigation effect on Decimation Blade, but can be used to guarantee that the next DB won't kill you. The fact that warriors/druids/dks don't have an equivalent cooldown doesn't make it unnecessary or underpowered.
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:27 am

Malthrax, WoG is an AMAZING 20 second cooldown. No, Druids and Warriors don't mean a raid will wipe, but I wouldn't compare a paladin to a Death Knight. That's comparing an Apple and an Turnip (yes. turnip. There are more similarities between an apple and an orange than between a paladin and a Dk tank). DK tanks heal a lot *.

Now, It's all part of the DK mechanics, and self healing is part of our mechanics. But Don't discount WoG. It is a VERY powerful tool. I don't like it. I don't like that it is currently so far ahead of SotR as the "right" choice. but you can't discount it.

Paladins who don't self heal are hurting their raid. I'm not telling you to switch to SoI (even though I have seen it make a difference in encounter success and failure when on the edge of killing something). But, Using WoG, and if you have the Mana Holy Radiance in spots where they are taken advantage of is part of being a paladin. You do the things you need to do.

*(That is a parse from a Beth'tilac kill a couple weeks ago I tanked. I, the Death Knight, healed myself for more than any one of the healers healed me for.)
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:18 am

Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:Well, I haven't bothered with ret since it was whack a mole proc a chance at some awesome ability, and I don't heal on a paladin. Its not my bag. Prot IS the paladin class for me.


Well just because you haven't bothered doesn't mean:

a. You shouldn't bother. Maybe things have changed and you might like how Ret or Holy plays now?
b. Other people shouldn't bother.
c. Those specs don't matter to the game as a whole.

More importantly, I don't think you can claim that the functionality of the 4.0 Prot Paladin, Holy Power and all, is not superior to that of the 2.0 and 3.0 prot paladins. We're now at the point where the other tanks are eyeing our mitigation abilities with envy... that's like, an amazing concept if you've been playing the game since 1.0.


A.) I don't play to DPS. I don't play to main spec heal. I play to tank.
b.) I didn't say other people shouldn't bother.
c.) I didn't say that they don't matter to the game as a whole.

I can claim that I liked 3.3 prot paladin more than 4.0 prot paladin. I do believe that I QUIT MY PALADIN after playing in the beta through 4.0 as my main in raiding situations. 4.0 Holy Power Prot is not fun for ME I never said that I didn't understand why people played it. I said I FEEL This was my feelings. my observations.

I don't see the positive side of holy power for the protection spec. That is the spec that I played. I am a tank for my guild. That is what I do. I show up to raids, and the majority of my time is spent as tank. I get to DPS Rhyolith, Baleroc, and *maybe* Domo. Swapping to a different spec on my paladin isn't in the best interest of my enjoyment of the game, or the ability for my guild to be able to consistently raid.

So instead, I quit my paladin and moved on to a class that is enjoyable FOR ME. We can go round and round like this about how you like it, and that you can rationalize it for Prot (by your own admission it is better implemented with holy and ret than prot) and I can keep saying that I don't like it, and it killed the enjoyment of my paladin.


I don't mind that you didn't like it and switched classes, that's totally fine. I was just saying that you not liking it is not some sort of reason for it to be a bad change.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:35 am

Sabindeus wrote:I don't mind that you didn't like it and switched classes, that's totally fine. I was just saying that you not liking it is not some sort of reason for it to be a bad change.


But even by your own admission Prot Paladin Holy Power is not close in design models to Holy and Ret. That is my point. And when I laid my position out there on why I thought that it was a bad design model you in turn made it a discussion about "me not liking it and that means I'm saying no one should like it" or something like that, instead of debating the actual points that I made.

  • It isn't interesting design for prot. The basis of gaining holy power and spending holy power as prot doesn't involve choice, or interest. it is 1/2 abilities that share a Cooldown and a Proc to build it on, and then technically 3 abilities to use it on. But, The choice in those three abilities is an illusion at best. WoG Trumps all. you save for it, You bank for it, you pool for it if need be. Otherwise, you either INQ for AoE or SotR for Single Target (unless since 4.1 we have found that INQ for single target can be > SotR, at which point, I will admit I'm wrong on that part).
  • It didn't move paladins away from the old design of being CD driven. Paladins are still driven by the cooldowns on their abilities. Shield of teh Righteous is the only ability in a prot paladin rotation that doesn't have a CD.
  • It doesn't interact with our other resource mechanic.

These are the reasons that I listed for not liking it, The reasons that I personally feel that it is an awful system. If you want to debate that opinion, thats fine, but it feels like you are trying to shift the conversation from the points I'm making to my personal reasons for quitting the class.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:58 am

Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't mind that you didn't like it and switched classes, that's totally fine. I was just saying that you not liking it is not some sort of reason for it to be a bad change.


But even by your own admission Prot Paladin Holy Power is not close in design models to Holy and Ret. That is my point. And when I laid my position out there on why I thought that it was a bad design model you in turn made it a discussion about "me not liking it and that means I'm saying no one should like it" or something like that, instead of debating the actual points that I made.

  • It isn't interesting design for prot. The basis of gaining holy power and spending holy power as prot doesn't involve choice, or interest. it is 1/2 abilities that share a Cooldown and a Proc to build it on, and then technically 3 abilities to use it on. But, The choice in those three abilities is an illusion at best. WoG Trumps all. you save for it, You bank for it, you pool for it if need be. Otherwise, you either INQ for AoE or SotR for Single Target (unless since 4.1 we have found that INQ for single target can be > SotR, at which point, I will admit I'm wrong on that part).
  • It didn't move paladins away from the old design of being CD driven. Paladins are still driven by the cooldowns on their abilities. Shield of teh Righteous is the only ability in a prot paladin rotation that doesn't have a CD.
  • It doesn't interact with our other resource mechanic.

These are the reasons that I listed for not liking it, The reasons that I personally feel that it is an awful system. If you want to debate that opinion, thats fine, but it feels like you are trying to shift the conversation from the points I'm making to my personal reasons for quitting the class.


No no, that's not what I'm saying.

What I am trying to say is: there is a logical leap between "Holy Power could use improvements to make it more meaningful for Prot" and "Holy Power is a bad change to the Paladin class" which I think is both incorrect and shortsighted. You seemed to have bridged that gap with "I only tank so other Paladin specs are meaningless" which is why I responded to that. I'm totally fine with you saying that "holy power could be better for Prot", but when you start saying things like "Holy Power ruined Paladins" I have to take issue with that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Shoju » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:22 am

As Holy Power sits right now, I have a hard time looking at Holy Power and seeing it as a positive change for the class. Holy Power ruined the Paladin for me, and I don't see much that they could do to make me interested in my paladin being my main again.

And honestly, the day that I made the decision to change mains, I honestly started thinking about quitting the game.

I'm over the "I love paladins!" love affair that I had with being a "Paladin" player. But, I'm still bitter that I don't have all the mounts, and achievements, and titles, and pets that I worked my ass off for. they sit there, on my paladin who sits in org. I occasionally break him out to run a troll, but that is it. When I quit my paladin, the major part of me that "did other things in the game besides heroics and raiding" started to die.

I gave up after 3 years of farming MC every lockout for my thunderfury. Yes. In 3 years, I missed.... a total of 5? lockouts.
I tried to get into rep farming for mounts again. You can check To see how well that hasn't gone.
I stopped going for achievements for things.
I stopped being so much of a completionist.
I stopped caring about the other parts of the game.

What is the point? Why should I have to go back and do all those quests again to get close on Loremaster?
Why should I have to spend all that time killing ogres for mag'har rep for mounts. Or Eggs for netherwing. Or pages and oil, and that grind for skyguard?

Why should I go back to the argent tournament for the third time? My DK was originally alliance. So, it would be the third time total (Shoju is a crusader) that I go back to farm up the seals for those mounts.

Why should I bother with achievements on my DK I don't have on my Paladin? I can't guarantee that I'm going to be a DK for the rest of the time I play wow. I don't have the same level of dedication to the character anymore.

I can honestly say, based on the way the game is currently designed, Holy Power made the game as a whole less fun for me.

So I probably have a more "bitter" view towards Holy power than most. Is it silly that one change to a class made me feel that way? Maybe. I could see how it could be silly. But, I don't enjoy my paladin anymore, which means I don't get to enjoy the work that I had put into my paladin anymore, and some of the stuff I had, is simply irreplaceable on a different character.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:32 am

I think it might feel better if Holy Power was not just a rotational thing for Prot. Decouple our damage rotation from it for the most part and make it a resource for our tanking, and make it feel less like we're obliged to use it up as soon as we get it, so there's some thought involved. Linking Holy Shield or some other abilities to it wouldn't be a terrible idea. It would probably be better if every ability didn't use up the full pool.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:44 am

Shoju, I fully understand where you're coming from, and I sympathize. I'm sorry Holy Power made you give up your main.

I went through a similar "class ruining" when they changed the beta paladin to the 1.0 Seal/Judgement mess of a auto attack shitfest. But I rolled my Paladin anyway, because I am dedicated to the Paladin ideal, regardless of how fun or not fun it may be. Maybe I'm a masochist or have more tolerance for bullshit than you, I don't know. But that is where my attitude towards the class is derived. No matter what they change now, it's still better than the 1.0 Paladin, and that's all I care about.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby theckhd » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:52 am

In other words: Sab sets the bar low! :P

Shoju, keep in mind that what you've been asking for from Holy Power - granularity and interesting choices - didn't exist in 3.x either. We didn't have any interesting choices to make there, arguably we didn't have any choices. It was 969 until boss dies, and that's it. So at the very least, Holy Power started the shift towards having any choice, which is better than nothing.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:59 am

theckhd wrote:In other words: Sab sets the bar low! :P

Shoju, keep in mind that what you've been asking for from Holy Power - granularity and interesting choices - didn't exist in 3.x either. We didn't have any interesting choices to make there, arguably we didn't have any choices. It was 969 until boss dies, and that's it. So at the very least, Holy Power started the shift towards having any choice, which is better than nothing.


^- precisely

Obviously though, something about this made Shoju not like it anymore.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Bloody Mitigation (Active Mitigation)

Postby halabar » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:13 am

theckhd wrote:In other words: Sab sets the bar low! :P

Shoju, keep in mind that what you've been asking for from Holy Power - granularity and interesting choices - didn't exist in 3.x either. We didn't have any interesting choices to make there, arguably we didn't have any choices. It was 969 until boss dies, and that's it. So at the very least, Holy Power started the shift towards having any choice, which is better than nothing.


But I don't think Holy Power did that well. It made it more complicated, but that's not necessarily more interesting. The had a shiny new mechanic that DKs had, and people were calling Protadins faceroll, so they shoehorned the DK mechanic onto Pallys.

But if we are talking active mitigation, I'm also not sure we are talking real choices. There are better choices than others, but you are still just hitting the defensive/survival ability that fits the boss mechanic.

With the threat changes, I wouldn't be surprised to see them take away some melee capabilities, and just make it so tanks are spamming defensive abilities to stay alive.. Hey, there's this Holy Shield thing, let's make them hit it every 6 seconds... oh wait....
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