Dev Watercooler - Threat

[lythac]

*I am not responsible for any Paladins who had a heart attack when seeing the phrase "massive overhaul"

If you're a Paladin and "massive overhaul" causes heart attacks then you should be loooooong dead.

Notice how Bubble works on less and less things? The next thing - heart attacks.

[benebarba]

The current interaction between mana and holy power is pretty bland, but if they're willing to do a massive overhaul*, it could actually be interesting.

Agreed. Heck, I pretty much just assume I have mana to do what needs doing, so I really only watch my HoPo.

[masterpoobaa]

Back in Early Cata I believe i made a comment along the lines of mana and paladins - Wondering how long we are actually going to remain having it?

It doesn't realy serve a purpose for Prot (besides reminding us to keep casting judgement,not cast consecrate and limit our self heals) Nor ret either (no consecrate again).

[Dantriges]

I have to admit, I am slowly fed up with the current model.

[Fetzie]

the thing is, converting paladins to work on an energy resource (i.e. infinite) from mana (finite) would mean that they would need to come up with some very good ideas on how to make paladin healers not totally dominate PvE and PvP because they cannot run OOM (and the priests will start q.q-ing about how manadrain is useless against us).

[benebarba]

the thing is, converting paladins to work on an energy resource (i.e. infinite) from mana (finite) would mean that they would need to come up with some very good ideas on how to make paladin healers not totally dominate PvE and PvP because they cannot run OOM (and the priests will start q.q-ing about how manadrain is useless against us).

well, or the opposite: have them suck so terribly that they fall out of favor because their throughput goes through the floor as they wait for <insert energy-like resource here> to re-fill so they can use their abilities. Though I guess nothing is stopping them from doing something similar to the druids where 2 specs basically end up doing things completely differently (i.e. essentially have a completely separate resource for their main abilities).

[masterpoobaa]

Hrms. point.
Have a base holy tree 'talent' that converts strength into int for a normal mana pool.
But of course then what about selfheals for prot/ret. - so maybe not

[Sagara]

Further, I can easily imagine the PvP madness with a Paladin that has both immense Strength and Intellect.

I remember back when Prot pallies used the Int PvP Plate to provide good heals without sacrificing their damage output via the SP -> AP converting talent.

[PsiVen]

I think part of the reason that tanks do not queue as much for RDF is that the supply of tanks is low, and has probably decreased since Firelands came out.

Someone mentioned earlier that 25m content only requries 2 tanks. So, if that guild decides to do heroics to top off VP, then they are short 4 tanks (2 tanks vs 5 groups, but adding 3 tanks would displace 3 dps so really they would need 4 for all make it into RDF). Back in Naxx25, fights like Patchwerk required 3 tanks, and it was not uncommon for guild to run with 4 tanks, even if one was dps/heals offspec. Just think how big a deal people thought it was to do 25m heroic halfus with 4 tanks, compared to naxx25. So the conversion of 25m content to 2 tanks for most fights has impacted RDF.

Furthermore, now that it is possible for a 25m guild to cap VP based soley on 7 bosses, or 6 + bh. then again the pool of available tanks is lower. Even as a 10m raider, my healer has now downed Raggy, so I can VP cap with Raggy + bh. Other than achieves why would I heal an RDF (chaos orbs for some people I guess, or maybe helping guildees). Even my tank now has 6/7, so I only need 1 troll heroic or two normals to cap VP. Lowering the VP cap probably exascerbated the tank problem.

Raids have always had this issue, and I doubt that's it gotten much worse just because the fights are more consistently 2-tanked than they used to be. The whole problem with Halfus 25H balance was that 25-mans found it very, very easy to throw 4-5 tanks at it. 25-mans keep multiple backup/offspec tanks on their rosters and feed them plenty of overflow gear.

5-tank fight standards are too impractical; the only way to fix RDF queues is one that will never happen: 6-player groups with 4 DPS.

[Koatanga]

5-tank fight standards are too impractical; the only way to fix RDF queues is one that will never happen: 6-player groups with 4 DPS.

Even that model is problematic because when you extend it to 25-man groups, you have 4 tanks. Designing for 4 tanks would still require redesigning the encounter for 10-mans with 2 tanks.

[Dantriges]

My guild planned for threee tanks originally. 3 raidays with a required attendance of 2 days. So you had 9 spaces in the schedule. One tank fills two spots, so you needed 4 tanks or so.

No we plan for 2, six spots, one tank still fills 2, means 3 tanks in the roster maximum. So this means one has to change to DPS or heal. Ok a guild with a tighter roster wouldn´t face this problem but we had some secial circumstances like DPS/tank offspec retiring and a Tank/reluctant DPS came back from retirement but yeah I think it had some effect, at least on some middle of the road guilds who entered Cata with their old tank roster.

[Steve]

Even that model is problematic because when you extend it to 25-man groups, you have 4 tanks. Designing for 4 tanks would still require redesigning the encounter for 10-mans with 2 tanks.

The best is the enemy of the better.

[Malthrax]

the only way to fix RDF queues is one that will never happen: 6-player groups with 4 DPS.

Explain how increasing the number of DPS in a random dungeon group from 3 to 4 will reduce queue times appreciably when people playing DPS characters outnumber those playing tanks by a factor of 10:1 or more.

[yappo]

5-tank fight standards are too impractical; the only way to fix RDF queues is one that will never happen: 6-player groups with 4 DPS.

Even that model is problematic because when you extend it to 25-man groups, you have 4 tanks. Designing for 4 tanks would still require redesigning the encounter for 10-mans with 2 tanks.

You're likely to solve the problem with seven man dungeons. Worst case you'd need eight man ones.

The former would be 1 tank, 1 heal and 5 dps. The latter, 1 tank, 2 heal, 5 dps. Basically you acknowledge the actual spread among players when it comes to how attractive the roles are from a percentage point of view.

[Malthrax]

You're likely to solve the problem with seven man dungeons. Worst case you'd need eight man ones.

The former would be 1 tank, 1 heal and 5 dps. The latter, 1 tank, 2 heal, 5 dps. Basically you acknowledge the actual spread among players when it comes to how attractive the roles are from a percentage point of view.

Anything you do to reduce the DPS queue time is going to attract more DPS to the queue.

The "queue time" issue is a result of forced reliance on a limited resource (i.e. a player willing to take on the "tank" role). There is no solution to the issue, so long as Blizzard maintains the constraint of requiring a tank for each group.