Remove Advertisements

Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby referee » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:41 pm

theckhd wrote:That's the point though - auto-DE is essentially 100% responsible for the price of Maelstroms. Before ZA/ZG, Maelstroms were 1k-2k gold a piece on my server (and even more in the first month or two, when they were extremely rare). After ZA/ZG, they dropped pretty quickly down to 50g.


But theck, when new content is made and the first drops of a new item are found, people will put it at high prices to cash in on the novelty. There's no way to know where they would be now without the auto-DE.
When you enter an instance, repeat to yourself: My job here is to die first.
referee
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:07 am

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:25 pm

theckhd wrote:But you physically did not give up anything that run that you wouldn't have otherwise left the run with. So you didn't lose anything.

Physically no, but I do lose the ability to buy those greens off the AH later, which on my server at least means the potential ability to buy them for less than the mats are worth. I lose the ability to collect tips form DEing a bunch of greens someone picked up in dungeons. I gain competition on the market from extra shards and crystals, or alternately if I chose to be nice and DE things, lose any potential tips from DEing for people on the run.

So while it is not a loss of actual income at the time, there are potential losses of tip income or markup. For any other service provided by any other profession, from crafting to prospecting, a tip is common unless there is an otherwise agreed-upon price for the service. The DE button removes that potential tip.

theckhd wrote:Take away auto-DE and the supply drops dramatically; it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Maelstrom prices to go back up to 300g or more in such a situation, which brings that Landslide enchant back up from 1k to 2-3k gold. That's more than enough to make a dent in my profits, because at that price more people will be choosy, or collect the mats themselves and find a guild enchanter to do it on the cheap.

A fair point, but the alternative is that I could DE the items for a fee or tip, which makes me money without diminishing the supply. The DE button removes the tip opportunity.

Since the person who performed the disenchant is identified in the chat window, I see no reason why there could not be a random 15% or 20% chance that the enchanter would receive 1-2 dust, 1 essence, 1 shard, or 1 crystal, consistent with the result of the disenchant. That would form a tip for the enchanter, be consistent with the proc rate of other professions, and make us all happy that the DE button exists.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1971
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby mavfin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:28 pm

Amirya wrote:
PsiVen wrote:The astonishing amount of entitlement people feel for happening to have picked a profession which is universally helpful never ceases to amaze me.

It's like discovering your farts smell like daisies, and then balking that you can't charge admission for people to sniff at them while you walk past on the sidewalk.

...there are no words to describe the image this creates. Like Mylune trailing after you...


You owe my daughter and I a keyboard, Amirya....
--Mav
mavfin
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Amirya » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:31 pm

mavfin wrote:You owe my daughter and I a keyboard, Amirya....

Talk to Levie, he's my sugar daddy.
Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3921
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby mavfin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:34 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Scrolls are my best source of gold, and I think having widely available cheap mats is one of the reasons why.


Agreed. I make good cash from Landslide, Peerless Stats, and Power Torrent Scrolls. Never too many at one time, but steady income.
--Mav
mavfin
 
Posts: 1789
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Belloc » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:35 pm

It won't be long before all groups have access to the disenchant option, enchanter or not. That will solve the problem of entitled enchanters.

Mining and skinning are gathering professions. Enchanting is not. Disenchanting uses loot drops as a component -- drops that the rest of the group has access to, as well. You cannot logically compare disenchanting to mining and skinning. Disenchanting is a bonus; treat it as such.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:16 pm

Seeking remuneration for services provided is not entitlement. It's business. These are called "professions", not "hobbies".

Does everyone complaining about enchanter "entitlement" provide their professional services free of charge to all who come along? For instance, if I was to have Belloc craft an item for me with, say blacksmithing (don't know your professions, sorry) and I provided the materials, should I expect the item to be crafted for free with no expectation of tip?

I give you X, you process it via your profession and give me Y, and I compensate you for that service by providing G. That's how it works. If X = green and Y = dust/essence, then how I am so far off-base to anticipate G?

The fact that I can buy X and make and sell Y is completely irrelevant. Whether I process reagents to make a finished good, or whether I process reagents to make other reagents, it is still a service provided. The green is useless to the person who wants it disenchanted, otherwise he wouldn't be disenchanting it. I am adding value to that useless green by transforming it into a useful and valuable commodity.

Disenchanting is a bonus? Nah. Disnechanting is my bread-and-butter. Scrolls don't sell well on my server. Tips are rubbish (ooh, thank you for your 5g for that 1500g enchant I just did). Disenchanting items that I craft on my JC and selling the resulting materials is my primary source of income, not a bonus.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1971
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:26 pm

Koatanga wrote:Seeking remuneration for services provided is not entitlement. It's business. These are called "professions", not "hobbies".

Disenchanting is a bonus? Nah. Disnechanting is my bread-and-butter. Scrolls don't sell well on my server. Tips are rubbish (ooh, thank you for your 5g for that 1500g enchant I just did). Disenchanting items that I craft on my JC and selling the resulting materials is my primary source of income, not a bonus.


But expecting tips from people on other servers in a pug is odd. Sure they benefit, but it is at no cost to you.

Don't do pugs on your enchanter!
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:41 pm

On the one hand I agree that forced labor is evil. On the other hand, I don't know that you can equate a process that requires zero effort on the Ench's part to a process that requires time, attention, and hassle on a crafter's part.

They should just make DE part of the default UI, or enchanters should just leave their rods at home.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Belloc » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:27 pm

Koatanga wrote:Seeking remuneration for services provided is not entitlement. It's business. These are called "professions", not "hobbies".

Does everyone complaining about enchanter "entitlement" provide their professional services free of charge to all who come along? For instance, if I was to have Belloc craft an item for me with, say blacksmithing (don't know your professions, sorry) and I provided the materials, should I expect the item to be crafted for free with no expectation of tip?

I give you X, you process it via your profession and give me Y, and I compensate you for that service by providing G. That's how it works. If X = green and Y = dust/essence, then how I am so far off-base to anticipate G?

The fact that I can buy X and make and sell Y is completely irrelevant. Whether I process reagents to make a finished good, or whether I process reagents to make other reagents, it is still a service provided. The green is useless to the person who wants it disenchanted, otherwise he wouldn't be disenchanting it. I am adding value to that useless green by transforming it into a useful and valuable commodity.

Disenchanting is a bonus? Nah. Disnechanting is my bread-and-butter. Scrolls don't sell well on my server. Tips are rubbish (ooh, thank you for your 5g for that 1500g enchant I just did). Disenchanting items that I craft on my JC and selling the resulting materials is my primary source of income, not a bonus.


Like I said, disenchanting will eventually be given to all groups regardless of the presence of an enchanter. What complaint are you going to have then?

Also, enchanting is a crafting profession. The only reason you have disenchanting is because you wouldn't have materials otherwise.
User avatar
Belloc
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:56 pm
Location: Silent Earth

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:32 pm

halabar wrote:But expecting tips from people on other servers in a pug is odd. Sure they benefit, but it is at no cost to you.

Don't do pugs on your enchanter!

Swings and roundabouts. Just as I DE for people on other servers, people on other servers DE for people on mine. The net result to the enchanting market in terms of available supply and competing parties is similar.

As far as not pugging on my enchanter, this issue doesn't bother me enough to worry about it. It's been around for a while now, and I am used to it. What I resent is people suggesting that seeking gain from a professional service is entitlement, while others who do it are just fine. That's hypocritical at best. I've seen Chaos Orbs going for over a thousand, for something that cost someone no effort (they were running the instance anyway).

fuzzygeek wrote:On the other hand, I don't know that you can equate a process that requires zero effort on the Ench's part to a process that requires time, attention, and hassle on a crafter's part.

To be fair, enchanters never wanted the DE button, for the reasons I have previously outlined. Just because it takes no effort from us does not mean we welcome the loss of potential income and increase in competition in our pet market (vs how it was pre-button).

And, as mentioned previously, thousands of gold for Chaos Orbs that required no additional effort to get suggests effort-vs-cost is not an issue.

Again this is not an issue I am passionate about, except with regard to the entitlement accusations. I do think it was improperly implemented in that enchanters get no benefit from providing the service and in fact have to provide it to complete douchebags that we run across in instances that we otherwise would not lift a finger for.

If they want to include mats procs for enchanters, I would be quite happy with the system. If they want to provide the button on all instances, whether or not there is an enchanter, I would welcome that as well.

Leaving the rod behind is an interesting idea. For convenience I don't think I have ever removed it from my bag, but it's a very good point and even saves me a bag slot.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1971
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Amirya » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:55 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:On the other hand, I don't know that you can equate a process that requires zero effort on the Ench's part to a process that requires time, attention, and hassle on a crafter's part.

I know this is not an issue in Cataclysm dungeons.

But in the dungeons that have mining nodes, would you feel the same if there was a new roll option introduced? "Need Ore" or "Smelt", I'm thinking. Then everyone in the instance could loot the node, that window would pop up, and whoever won would get the ore or the bar with no extra effort on the part of the miner. Oooh, and if there was also a JCer, "Need Ore," "Smelt" or "Prospect" for the window. JCer wouldn't need to actually prospect, of course.
Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3921
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:55 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:They should just make DE part of the default UI, or enchanters should just leave their rods at home.


That sounds interesting.. what happens if you leave your enchanting rod in the bank?...
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby rodos » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:35 pm

Blizzard could have avoided all this QQ by enchanters (that's been going on for, what, years now) by solving the "can't trade in RDF" problem another way.

Allow disenchanting of items in the "will not be traded" slot.

Greed stays as greed, and if you want to tip an enchanter to DE your BoP blue later, that's great.

I really can't see this option creating more of an influx of shards and crystals into the market than RDF has done. The only problem I can see would be griefing, where someone DEs your new purp when you ask them to enchant it. Popping up the same "item will be destroyed" confirmation box you get from a DE roll should fix that.

I love the convenience of the DE roll, but I'm not sure I like it more than the whining.
User avatar
rodos
 
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:20 pm

Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby bldavis » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:04 pm

i have been trying to stay out of this thread since stirring up the hornets nest, but if they implement deing via the will not be traded slot, and you have your new shiny epix de'ed cause you werent paying attention and hit trade without catching it said disenchant......that is your own dam fault....
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7347
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest