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Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Cronus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:27 pm

Holy Crap! We are on the 4th page of an absolutly stupid topic! Enchanters, which I am one myself, GET OVER YOURSELF! Lets move along to something more important now.

Oh, if you dont like it, reroll another proffession.

Peace Out!
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:53 pm

Cronus wrote:Holy Crap! We are on the 4th page of an absolutly stupid topic! Enchanters, which I am one myself, GET OVER YOURSELF! Lets move along to something more important now.

Oh, if you dont like it, reroll another proffession.

Peace Out!

5th page :)

Look, we can post "if you don't like it GTFO" anytime anyone doesn't like something.

Don't like being a plated pervert wearing a dress and mirrored boots so people can see up your dress? GTFO. Don't like threat changes? GTFO.

It's not very productive, is it?

The point of a forum is to discuss, and perchance to disagree. Nobody is under the illusion that such discussion will create change - we're just opining.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby PsiVen » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:19 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Passionario wrote:If you wanted a profession that provides virtually zero benefits for players who don't have it themselves, you should have picked Engineering.

Mailboxes and Jeeves? Kinda handy.


Yeah, honestly one of the main attractions to Engineering was the ability to drop Jeeves for my raids. Not that it really matters with Firelands' vendors...
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Raeli » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:50 am

I don't understand the fuss really - You're still only rolling @ Greed level, it just gives them an easier way to get things disenchanted. It's easier than having to send stuff to an alt, and it allows for more epics to be disenchanted - which in my mind is a good thing, Maelstroms at silly prices is not fun, and if only an enchanter can win, then you're basically saying that everyone should roll enchanting because it's an easy way to make a lot of gold just from running randoms, and I don't really think it's a smart idea to go down that path.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Passionario » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:59 am

Another hidden benefit of Enchanting is that you can buy Maelstroms for 700 JP, rather than 3750 (*and* you get another Bountiful Bags proc chance when you do).

Koatanga wrote:Mailboxes and Jeeves? Kinda handy.

Since Jeeves does not give reputation discounts, he actually makes other people LOSE money.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:53 am

Koatanga wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:Besides, price elasticity my friend. As theckhd alluded to, you're going to end up moving goods more quickly with the lower price point of materials. It's not as if people would have been stupid enough to post greens at 3g when dusts are going for 10g so the argument that the greens that would have been yours is a silly one.

I disagree. Enchants are pretty much mandatory, so demand will be similar at increased price points for materials, within reason.


Except that's not how people work. Landslide wasn't mandatory during the first few weeks when the price was 30k per enchant. Players in guilds outside the top 500 or so simply didn't bother. They still didn't bother when it was 10k. Now that it's around 1k, I can sell 7-10 in a week. That's all because the price of Maelstroms dropped, which is directly tied to the group-DE feature. I guarantee that if it was only enchanters who could get that bonus, Maelstroms would still be in the 500g or higher range (10x more expensive) and the enchants would still be around 5k, which would be out of the range a more casual player would pay, given cheaper alternatives like Avalanche/Hurricane.

Koatanga wrote:With regard to greens, again I disagree. People who are going to AH their green instead of DEing them or vendoring them generally fall into two camps: "Ooh this has hot stats, I'll sell it for heaps", or "Of the whale? Ew. I'll sell it cheap and see if some sucker will buy it.". They generally don't do the maths on the disenchant value.

Example: Carnelian spikes. I have bought as low as 35g and normally around 60-65g. The DE value is 112g.

Just did a search on AH for weapons of iLvl 305 or higher. There were 10 items selling for under their DE value, 7 of which were less than 2/3 of their DE value.

So yeah, people are stupid enough to list greens below their DE value, and in fact they do it all the time. Making DE less available would mean equate to even more undervalued greens available.

I'm not sure about your AH, but there are enough people on Blackrock that this doesn't really happen. Or if it does, the items are snapped up a lot faster than I can get to them. I suspect most people are just vendoring them or sending them to an enchanter alt or friend. I've never been able to make much money off of disenchanting, simply because the market is too large and there are enough savvy players. Maybe it works differently on a small server, where there's nobody else smart enough to exploit that market. But for those of us on big servers, scrolls are about the only way to make money with Enchanting.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:58 am

Koatanga wrote:I am an enchanter and scribe.

Number of regular Heroic runs: 75
Number of Troll Heroic runs: 41
Number of Chaos Orbs dropped: 116

My financial share of all chaos orbs dropped: 0g

By rights, I should have 23 orb-credits (116/5) to use for when I need something made. Instead, I pay the going rate for orbs whenever I need anything crafted.

This is a failing of the Chaos Orb design, not of the profession. Chaos orbs should either be BoE, or every profession should require them. If the high-end enchants (Landslide/Windwalk/Power Torrent/etc.) required 1 Chaos Orb, it'd be a completely different story. That has nothing to do with whether group DE is a good implementation or not.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Shyrtandros » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:22 am

Regardless of whether you disenchant the item.. they still won the roll.. meaning your not out ANYTHING more than what you had.. the only difference is that instead of them getting the BoE and dealing with a vendor or finding an enchanter.. you DE it with ZERO effort..

My main is an enchanter and it bothers me none, in fact I really like the feature.. it's very conveniant for friends and guildies.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:23 am

I have an enchanter, and I'm not getting heartburn over some pug shmuck who wins the roll. Big deal. That rant was so 12 months ago. All these enchanters rage-quitting because they felt they were loosing something.

Do you REALLY want to have to DE for someone during a pug like it used to be done? really?

And a pro-tip, if you are an enchanter, never hit DE. Hit greed. Assuming you win the roll and you have the guild perk, you might get the extra mat proc by DEing it yourself after. I pick up 2-3 extra maelstrom a week doing that.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby referee » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:27 pm

Yes, I really want to have to DE for someone during a pug. This way I can decide if he should be helped or not. When people picks Disenchant instead of Greed, yes, I'm not losing anything. But when people picks Disenchant instead of Pass, I AM losing something.

Also, the Market self-corrects. If items are at 500K and no one buys, prices will drop without need to increase the supply.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Amirya » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:31 pm

halabar wrote:Do you REALLY want to have to DE for someone during a pug like it used to be done? really?

Minor quibble (pretty sure I said earlier that I didn't care either way)

Before the implementation of auto-DE, I was never in a position that where I *had* to DE for a pug, and if they did away with auto-DE for some odd reason, I will never be in a position where I *have* to DE. Politely refusing works just fine. Or if you are quick enough, at end of run, once loot's been distributed, just quietly leave group.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:32 pm

referee wrote:Yes, I really want to have to DE for someone during a pug. This way I can decide if he should be helped or not. When people picks Disenchant instead of Greed, yes, I'm not losing anything. But when people picks Disenchant instead of Pass, I AM losing something.

Also, the Market self-corrects. If items are at 500K and no one buys, prices will drop without need to increase the supply.


First of all, you can't DE for cross-server pugs anyway. The change was needed for RDF.

Drop enchanting, leveling engineering, you'll be happier.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:56 pm

I like enchanting as a profession. I just don't like and have never liked the free DE service that people get.

I'm not going to get frothy about it and didn't at the time - it's not hat big of a deal. But when people are saying we don't lose anything from it and are not impacted by it, they are not being factual. The additional supply of materials and additional players in our market do impact the price of goods.

@Theckd: To be fair my disenchanting mainly makes money off of the goods I make with my JC, but the JC/Enchanter Axis of Income is pretty godlike this xpac. The only thing that has made me more gold than that was solo Firelands trash farming. But I do take advantage wherever possible of people who list greens cheaply, particularly JCs levelling on carnelian spikes.

With regard to the Landslide enchant, few people were buying it because the price per crystal was 1000g. That's why I said "within reason". If the price per crystal was 90g instead of 70g, I doubt that would greatly impact the number of Landslide enchants used by tanks. 70g vs 1000g is a different story entirely.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:30 pm

referee wrote:Yes, I really want to have to DE for someone during a pug. This way I can decide if he should be helped or not. When people picks Disenchant instead of Greed, yes, I'm not losing anything. But when people picks Disenchant instead of Pass, I AM losing something.

Also, the Market self-corrects. If items are at 500K and no one buys, prices will drop without need to increase the supply.


In my experience, very very few people pass on greens and blues. Almost Nobody. Admittedly, I'm from Blackrock, where the old standard pre-RDF was to need on everything just to make sure nobody could ninja your vendor loot. But even since RDF changed the default vendor option to "greed," I can't remember seeing anyone pass on stuff unless someone already rolled "need."

In addition, the market does not self-correct to maximize my profits. It self-corrects prices based on supply and demand, but that does not mean that my profits are an invariant under that system. I guarantee that you will make more profit per week selling enchants when Maelstroms cost 50g instead of 500g or 1000g, simply because the supply/demand self-correction will drive sales volume down and encourage penny-pinching.

Koatanga wrote:I'm not going to get frothy about it and didn't at the time - it's not hat big of a deal. But when people are saying we don't lose anything from it and are not impacted by it, they are not being factual. The additional supply of materials and additional players in our market do impact the price of goods.

Right, they impact the price of raw materials. That can work to your advantage though if you sell scrolls. I can guarantee that I have not lost money due to auto-DE, because I like cheap materials. Cheap materials make me more cash in scrolls.

But you physically did not give up anything that run that you wouldn't have otherwise left the run with. So you didn't lose anything. All auto-DE does is provide this ethereal background source of materials on the market, much like prospecting does for gems.

So to be clear - it's not factual to say we're not impacted by it, but it's also not fair to say that we unambiguously lose something from it. You may make less money the way you use the profession, but I make more. So who gets to decide it's a loss or a gain?

Koatanga wrote:With regard to the Landslide enchant, few people were buying it because the price per crystal was 1000g. That's why I said "within reason". If the price per crystal was 90g instead of 70g, I doubt that would greatly impact the number of Landslide enchants used by tanks. 70g vs 1000g is a different story entirely.

That's the point though - auto-DE is essentially 100% responsible for the price of Maelstroms. Before ZA/ZG, Maelstroms were 1k-2k gold a piece on my server (and even more in the first month or two, when they were extremely rare). After ZA/ZG, they dropped pretty quickly down to 50g.

Now consider where most of those shards come from. The vast majority are going to be auto-disenchants. Even if you assume that Enchanting is over-represented as a profession and that 2 out of every 5 players is an enchanter, that means 60% of those crystals are being handed out to non-enchanters. Take away auto-DE and the supply drops dramatically; it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Maelstrom prices to go back up to 300g or more in such a situation, which brings that Landslide enchant back up from 1k to 2-3k gold. That's more than enough to make a dent in my profits, because at that price more people will be choosy, or collect the mats themselves and find a guild enchanter to do it on the cheap.
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Re: Enchantment Yes, or Enchantment No?

Postby Passionario » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:01 pm

Just roll Need on everything. If others complain, ignore them. Since we've already established that they're just greedy worthless thieving pluckers who are trying to steal your preciousss shards, their opinion is utterly irrelevant.
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