DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

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DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby econ21 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:32 am

How high DPS do you need for Firelands and heroic T11 10-mans and how do you know if you have it?

I've seen numbers like 15k dps as the norm for starting Firelands, although that seems a little high from my experience (we got him to 1% with only about one person meeting that benchmark). What about heroic T11? My limited experience is that Shannox 10N seemed less demanding in output that some of the heroic BWD encounters I've tasted.

The follow-up question is how do you know what dps your characters have? Because some encounters seem easier for one kind of dps to sustain output than another (e.g. if people have to move alot). Is there a Patchwork style boss in T11 that is a good benchmark? Or at least, one for ranged and one for melee? Many fights seem to have special mechanics, buffs/debuffs or adds that might distort the measures. I am not sure failed progression fights are the best way of measuring dps, as the things that cause wipes typically disrupt the performance of the dps.

What about against raid dummies? Can you see your rotation and scale it up somewhat to account for raid buffs? I almost exclusively tank, but last time I checked (prior to 4.3), in around 359 ret gear, I was only gettting 10-11k dps on a raid dummy, which seems low by the entry standards I have read. (Yet my gear was optimised and I was doing the rotation right, I think - I used clcret and anyway, it's not rocket science). Should I be comparing that 10-11k dps with the 15k dps requirement for Firelands? If so, something seems wrong, as it would imply 359 geared retadins don't belong. If it can be scaled up, how much - roughly - would be appropriate? Raid dummies allow you to perform your rotation uninterrupted, whereas in most raids, there would presumably be some disruption.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Passionario » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:38 am

econ21 wrote:Is there a Patchwork style boss in T11 that is a good benchmark?


Baleroc is the closest equivalent, I believe.
Last edited by Passionario on Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:49 am

I use 10k as the benchmark "character successfully reached level 85 and isn't a total idiot" mark, myself. I'm not sure about 15k for Firelands - I expected most people to be capable of that in T11.

Judging by my old guild (4/7 in Firelands normal) then you can manage with most at 16-18k.

Baradin Hold fights aren't bad for a pretty simple check of capabilities. There are disadvantages (movement on Occu'thar, parries on Argaloth), but they're as good as you get usually. Apart from there, Chimaeron and Baleroc involve standing still and facerolling for the most part (melee shouldn't have a problem dancing in and out of crystals without interrupting dps).
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:04 am

"Knows what they are doing and are half blues/half greens": 10-13k
"full 359, knows what they are doing": 15-20k
"full 372, knows what they are doing": 18-25k
"full 378, knows what they are doing": 20-27k
"full 391, knows what they are doing": 26-35k

for "exceptionally capable" add another 2-3k, for "abysmal, makes you wonder how they managed to type in their password correctly" subtract 5-10k.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Astronomic » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:27 am

worldoflogs.com is a good place to start. You can see the top DPS numbers and their damage breakdowns to compare with yours, as well as class/spec averages for specific fights. You can also use this to see how your fellow raiders are doing.

pyrea's list is pretty accurate just note thats not what you will be doing on a target dummy. As affliction my lock does 13-14k on dummies but i think on nefarion I did 19.2k with avg ilvl 360.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:34 am

Target dummies are strange. IIRC they show atypical armor, resistance, and crit suppression, as well as being unaffected or incorrectly affected by certain debuffs.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:39 am

I also think how much dps is requried depends on how many healers you are taking. If you have great heals you cans sometimes take an extra dps, which can still yield a kill even with lower average output. Some bosses, like Shannox are more forgiving dps-wise, while Beth'tilac is more healing intensive.

For my guild's first N-Domo-10 kill I think we were around 135k raid dps (including hero burn phase) and since then we have moved upto 147k. Basically all 6 dps were 20k-22k + 1 tank at like 14k and 3 healers doing almost none. For my group2 kill last week I think we were also around 135k raid wide for Domo10.

Dummy-Dummy comparison is ok, Dummy-Raid comparison can be tricky, you should compare raid dummy before and after new items using comparable buffs. Most of your raid dummy time is going to be self-buffed only with probably no flask or food, and no bonuses from other raid boss debuffs. In a real raid encounter you should gain several K dps dummy vs raid once you buff. Some classes may also not have a full chance to proc certain abilities against a dummy which could also skew the numbers. But if you get a new weapon and compare nefore and after dps on the dummy it could give you an idea of gain in a raid.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Eroslight » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:43 am

Just make sure you filter out add damage or cleaving etc. For example only look at Shannox damage taken, the only way Frost DKs are ranking on Heroic Shannox right now is by spamming howling blast when the dogs are in range, upping their DPS.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Doz » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:46 am

econ21 wrote:How high DPS do you need for Firelands and heroic T11 10-mans and how do you know if you have it?

I've seen numbers like 15k dps as the norm for starting Firelands, although that seems a little high from my experience (we got him to 1% with only about one person meeting that benchmark). What about heroic T11? My limited experience is that Shannox 10N seemed less demanding in output that some of the heroic BWD encounters I've tasted.



If you only have 1 person able to hit 15k, I doubt you will be able to kill Bethtilac (the spider boss) or really much after Shannox unless you have healers that are incredibly overgeared.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:48 am

15k is low if that's what your highest dps is doing. I would expect at least 16-17k dps from all raid member starting Firelands. (And even then, that's kind of unrealistic as our raid group ranged from 16k to 21k dps when we first entered. So the higher ones are pulling up the average.)
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby cerwillis » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:11 am

Target dummies are better for some classes than others. I use it a lot of my rogue, but not at all on my SP, the results are very inconsistent and many caster buffs are not present.

For those that aren't aware, www.stateofdps.com may not give realistic numbers for the average player, but it will tell you how the various specs rank.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:13 am

Nikachelle wrote:15k is low if that's what your highest dps is doing. I would expect at least 16-17k dps from all raid member starting Firelands. (And even then, that's kind of unrealistic as our raid group ranged from 16k to 21k dps when we first entered. So the higher ones are pulling up the average.)


But you really need to say what fight there. But 17k on the dummies would be a good benchmark, despite the oddities of them. There's a lot of places in FL where AOE will puff up the numbers, and heavy movement (or armor like on Rhyo) will suppress the numbers.

Chim might be the best place to test dps.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby halabar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:14 am

cerwillis wrote:Target dummies are better for some classes than others. I use it a lot of my rogue, but not at all on my SP, the results are very inconsistent and many caster buffs are not present.


If it's a 10-man group, you can bring them all to a target dummy... I've seen it done before.

Allows a raid leader to see what people are doing with no excuses.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:03 am

An assassination rogue at least is probably more raid buff dependent than a shadow priest.
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Re: DPS - how to measure it and how much is required?

Postby cerwillis » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:56 am

Pyrea wrote:An assassination rogue at least is probably more raid buff dependent than a shadow priest.

Fair enough. I never do the amount of DPS that I would in a raid on my rogue ofc, but I can generally replicate my rotation exactly the same, with the exception of combo points in order to test different configs. On SP, I find that with orb procs, it isn't really possible to do the same thing two times in a row consistently. Ymmv.

also:
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A: What you do on a training dummy is irrelevant, not only is your sample data far too small to rule out RNG, you're also missing lots of buffs/target debuffs that will change the way certain talents perform.

This may be their view on all specs, but I took it to heart when I read it in the SP guide
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