Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Mukat » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:09 pm

We should stop overanalyzing Star Trek before we start hating it. Or we could just say mass effect caused everything.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Treck » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:11 pm

Mukat wrote:Sci-fi has really misplayed the whole black hole vacuum in space thing. The black holes that we would normally encounter in real life are just infinitely dense points of matter in space that actually have the same, or similar, mass as the star that spawned it. If our sun collapsed and earth wasn't destroyed by any ensuing supernova, we wouldn't get sucked into it because the mass wouldn't change. Gravity wouldnt be affected.

Gravity WOULD be affected, as while the black hole does have the same mass, its size is smaller.
And since the force that objects attract eachother depending on the distance between them, a Black hole of a star would actually affect a planet orbiting as if it had less mass than the sun itself, the differance wouldnt be huge as most of the mass of a star is in its core anyway.
Not to mention that a sun spews out shitloads of its gas during a supernova explosion, so the ammount of matter forming the black hole itself, isnt even as much as it was before the explosion.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Mukat » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:52 pm

I should've said the mass/gravity wouldn't change enough to cause a drastic change on orbit. If the mass of the body formally known as Vulcan were changed, it could still take hours, days, or even years (millenia maybe) for Spock's exile planet to get sucked in. To be honest, the gravity change should result in less mass/gravity, and thus the orbiting bodies would take on a more oblong or eliptical orbit, or suddenly hit escape velocity and go drifting outside their normal orbit.

What we observe in the movie is a load of non-science. Remember that every time you use a transporter, you die and a clone is reborn with all your thoughts and memories.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby cerwillis » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:05 pm

I liked the vids that Invis posted of Eve Online, but I couldn't help but notice that they used the Star Wars mechanic of "planes in space" rather than showing what vehicles would look like in a real vacuum. It would be interesting to see a space combat movie that really tackled outer-space physics and propulsion. I suppose it wouldn't be very interesting :mrgreen:

Edit: I rewatched one of the vids, and I didn't see any hard banking turns, the ships all seemed to move in straight lines, so I may not fully understand the movement in the game, but the point stands for Star Wars.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Koatanga » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:30 pm

Regarding the Star Wars credits issue, they would not have wanted to exchange volume of republic credits for local currency anywhere that would have attracted attention from either the trade federation or the Hutt gangsters. They were laying low. While I could show up in Wyoming and exchange my NZ dollars for greenbacks to purchase car repairs, I doubt the mechanic would accept my NZ dollars directly. Same concept applies.

If currency is freely exchanged between rim worlds and the Republic, then there would be little need for black market exchange, so any transfer of currency would be on official channels and subject to scrutiny. It's not that they couldn't exchange; it's that they didn't want to so as to remain under the radar. If they weren't afraid of attention, they could have parked closer to the city instead of in the middle of the desert.

Of all the plot holes so massive you could drive trucks through them, this one is at least partially explainable.

With regard to the Star Trek black holes, I have to admit to being suckered into the sci-fi idea that a black hole is a gravity well that sucks in everything around it, without considering that the mass is exactly the same as the collapsed body that formed it, so it would behave, gravitationally speaking, the same way as the original body. If our sun was instantaneously replaced by a black hole, the orbit of the earth should remain unchanged. All mass of an object can be considered condensed into a single point at the centre of gravity of the object, for purposes of calculating gravitational effects, so whether it is sun-sized or teaspoon-sized should make no difference.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Arnock » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:34 pm

Koatanga wrote:Regarding the Star Wars credits issue, they would not have wanted to exchange volume of republic credits for local currency anywhere that would have attracted attention from either the trade federation or the Hutt gangsters. They were laying low. While I could show up in Wyoming and exchange my NZ dollars for greenbacks to purchase car repairs, I doubt the mechanic would accept my NZ dollars directly. Same concept applies.

If currency is freely exchanged between rim worlds and the Republic, then there would be little need for black market exchange, so any transfer of currency would be on official channels and subject to scrutiny. It's not that they couldn't exchange; it's that they didn't want to so as to remain under the radar. If they weren't afraid of attention, they could have parked closer to the city instead of in the middle of the desert.




Mechanic? No, but if your car broke down in a port city in NZ, it probably wouldn't be too hard to find a captain who regularly trades with the US and would be willing to accept US currency.

Furthermore, if the car you were driving was a Rolls Royce, it probably wouldn't be too hard to sell it for enough to buy an old, beat-up, yet functioning vehicle that could take you the rest of the way.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Lightbeard » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:20 pm

Arnock wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Regarding the Star Wars credits issue, they would not have wanted to exchange volume of republic credits for local currency anywhere that would have attracted attention from either the trade federation or the Hutt gangsters. They were laying low. While I could show up in Wyoming and exchange my NZ dollars for greenbacks to purchase car repairs, I doubt the mechanic would accept my NZ dollars directly. Same concept applies.

If currency is freely exchanged between rim worlds and the Republic, then there would be little need for black market exchange, so any transfer of currency would be on official channels and subject to scrutiny. It's not that they couldn't exchange; it's that they didn't want to so as to remain under the radar. If they weren't afraid of attention, they could have parked closer to the city instead of in the middle of the desert.




Mechanic? No, but if your car broke down in a port city in NZ, it probably wouldn't be too hard to find a captain who regularly trades with the US and would be willing to accept US currency.

Furthermore, if the car you were driving was a Rolls Royce, it probably wouldn't be too hard to sell it for enough to buy an old, beat-up, yet functioning vehicle that could take you the rest of the way.


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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:58 pm

Arnock wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Regarding the Star Wars credits issue, they would not have wanted to exchange volume of republic credits for local currency anywhere that would have attracted attention from either the trade federation or the Hutt gangsters. They were laying low. While I could show up in Wyoming and exchange my NZ dollars for greenbacks to purchase car repairs, I doubt the mechanic would accept my NZ dollars directly. Same concept applies.

If currency is freely exchanged between rim worlds and the Republic, then there would be little need for black market exchange, so any transfer of currency would be on official channels and subject to scrutiny. It's not that they couldn't exchange; it's that they didn't want to so as to remain under the radar. If they weren't afraid of attention, they could have parked closer to the city instead of in the middle of the desert.




Mechanic? No, but if your car broke down in a port city in NZ, it probably wouldn't be too hard to find a captain who regularly trades with the US and would be willing to accept US currency.

Furthermore, if the car you were driving was a Rolls Royce, it probably wouldn't be too hard to sell it for enough to buy an old, beat-up, yet functioning vehicle that could take you the rest of the way.

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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby crazyharry » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:14 am

cerwillis wrote:I liked the vids that Invis posted of Eve Online, but I couldn't help but notice that they used the Star Wars mechanic of "planes in space" rather than showing what vehicles would look like in a real vacuum. It would be interesting to see a space combat movie that really tackled outer-space physics and propulsion. I suppose it wouldn't be very interesting :mrgreen:

Edit: I rewatched one of the vids, and I didn't see any hard banking turns, the ships all seemed to move in straight lines, so I may not fully understand the movement in the game, but the point stands for Star Wars.


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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Fetzie » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:17 am

If space movies were even remotely accurate, the only time you would hear anything would be inside the space ships >.>
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:14 am

Pyrea wrote:If space movies were even remotely accurate, the only time you would hear anything would be inside the space ships >.>

It can be pretty easily explained by that you as the person watching, can hear the effects of explosions and stuff as if you were in the exploding ship, while watching it from another ship, or just from space.
Some show started off with trying to have "beleavable" space combat without sound, but it was a huge financial disaster and they had to remake the episodes WITH sound in order to keep the show going.
Some shows just kinda muffles a lot of the sound when they have space scenes, like if the sound would be a lot weaker, while yes it would obviously not be any at all.

Also if something explodes, it does send out a shockwave that could be "heard" once it hits the ship your in, while the distance usually is very far between objects in space, the sound would be very delayed if it would even reach you.

If i remember right Firefly did it pretty good, was a good while since i watched the series, but they always cut to music during space battles and when there was sound it was usually only from what one part could hear.
One of the things that made it such an awesome show.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:30 am

Star Wars is not a problem:

Qui'Gon felt thru the Force that it would be worth his while to remain on the planet for the duration of the race and to see Analin's skills frist hand. He trusted in the Force to guide his wager and the Force did not let him down. Qui'Gon being a master simply did not feel it appropriate to explain these details to a young and mostly clueless Padawan Kenobi.


As far as the Star Trek black holes. That is all orbital mechanics. If something would have been fine orbiting Vulcan, or another planet/planetoid in/near the Vulcan system, then merely compressing Vulcan into a Black Hole wouldn't change anything (assuming no energy losses). I for one thought that the planet where young Kirk and old Spock were located was farther out than Vulcan's moon, possibly another planet in the sysem or even in a neighboring system.

As far as wrecking Vulcan, that depends on how fast you want to do it. You could simply drop a small black hole from orbit and it would trash the planet over a few days as long as you could prevent the Vulcans from capturing/sequestering the black hole. boring into the core and doing it in one go, just makes it more exiting/hollywoodized and more difficult to stop. A black hole dropped from orbit would probably fall completely thru a planet eating a small amount of mass and emitting copious amounts of gamma rays then falling back again for a return trip, like a pendulum, repeating the process as it slowly loses energy due to friction with the planet. There is a limit to the rate a small black hole could eat so it would probably take a while, but you could wreck a planet this way assuming you had such Star Trek technology available. This type of thing has been used as a sci-fi book device before.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby culhag » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:14 am

In LotR: Return of the King, in one of the commentaries (I think it's when Frodo is held prisoner by the orcs in Mordor), a guy told an anecdote of someone asking "Shouldn't it be darker here, where does the light come from ?" and being answered "Same place as the music."
Since then, every time unrealistic conventions in movies are mentioned, I remember that answer.

So how does the sound travel in space ? Same way as the music.
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Xenix » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:31 pm

Koatanga wrote:If our sun was instantaneously replaced by a black hole, the orbit of the earth should remain unchanged. All mass of an object can be considered condensed into a single point at the centre of gravity of the object, for purposes of calculating gravitational effects, so whether it is sun-sized or teaspoon-sized should make no difference.


That's an approximation that's only valid for spherically homogeneous bodies. If you do the appropriate calculus, you'll find that a homogeneous spherical shell of mass has the same effect as a point source of the same mass on objects outside of it, and you can treat a sphere as a bunch of layered shells, but for anything else, standard orbital mechanics isn't completely valid. See, for example, the effect of the earth not being a perfect sphere on satellite orbits which causes nodal precession (can google J2 effect, or J4,J6,etc if you really want to get into the math). If you're far enough away, it's a good approximation, but close up you'd notice a difference.


I do agree with the Vulcan thing though - there's no way another planet would be that large in the sky unless the two planets were in some kind of binary system orbiting each other as they went around their star. And the supernova that was going to destroy the Federation? Hah - evidently supernovas learned how to go at warp speed or something. I just ignored the entire "science" explanations of the movie and watched it for entertainment.

cerwillis wrote:I liked the vids that Invis posted of Eve Online, but I couldn't help but notice that they used the Star Wars mechanic of "planes in space" rather than showing what vehicles would look like in a real vacuum. It would be interesting to see a space combat movie that really tackled outer-space physics and propulsion. I suppose it wouldn't be very interesting :mrgreen:


Yeah, Eve does do it like planes in space. The problem with doing it "realistically" in a movie is that the average moviegoer doesn't think that way. For example, if you've got spacecraft A and B wanting to catch it (to board it, let's say), and A has a lead of 1000 km, but has a max speed 1 km/s slower than spacecraft B, you can visualize that B will catch up in ~17 minutes at which point it will match speeds and board.

Realistically, it'd be more like A has a lead of 1000 km and is going 6.0 km/s and can accelerate at 100 m/s^2, while B is only going 3.0 km/s but can accelerate at 120 m/s^2, so for the next 2.5 minutes spacecraft A will continue to open the range until B makes up its velocity advantage, at which point B will start to catch up, but if B continues to accelerate at its full rate, it will be going much faster than A when it catches up, so in order to rendezvous it'll have to accelerate to a higher velocity and decelerate while the distance is closing so it can match acceleration and velocity with A when the distance between them is small enough to board. This will of course take much longer than if B just wanted to zip by and say, shoot at A. Much more complicated trying to keep all that straight in your head compared to planes in space. :lol: Read the Honor Harrington series by David Weber if you want some space naval warfare of that type though. (or look up the Assault Vector or Saganami Island Tactical Simulator board games).
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Re: Plotholes You Noticed In Your Favorite Movies

Postby Fivelives » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:24 pm

But wouldn't it actually be like "planes in space"? Inertia applies whether you're in vacuum or atmosphere, so you would have to bank into turns or else risk breaking apart. If you were to slew the ship 90 degrees and continue along your previous trajectory while applying thrust in your new direction, you'd still be "banking", as the curve would (or should, anyway) be approximately the same as compared to a plane banking in atmosphere.

At least, that's what my gut says anyway. I don't have the math to back that up, though.
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