Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

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Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Maleus » Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:34 pm

Since the threat hotfix is basically going to make obtaining and keeping threat laughable, is it feasible to start glyphing and speccing into more survivability type items? Glyphing wog, speccing out of increased damage with CS and judges, and into self healing for easier tanking encounters.

Dont get me wrong, I know that the self healing off of items like wog is laughable, but it would seem that the previous items that were glyphed and specced would be wasted now, rather than seeing 1000% threat instead of 500%, why not take advantage of the bonus, and increase survivability?

Should insight be used now? Threat will be there regardless, the self healing adds up which means more survivability.

I am a new pally tank, only tanked a few raids, but the ones I did tank, threat wasnt an issue on a boss. I have only had threat problems in heroic 5 mans on aoe pulls, and with high dps who refuse to assist off of me. It would seem that since boss encounters arent an issue now, they will be even less of an issue after the hotfix, so why not add to survivability?

As I said, Im just a noob who got to thinking, if I am reading the changes wrong I appologize, but if not, is it feasible?
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:12 am

1) This thread doesn't belong in AT&C, so I'm moving it to the Talent subforum.

2) We already take all of the survivability talents available, at least in the "default" builds I suggest. The hotfix will just make any "threat-based" builds even more irrelevant.

The SoT/SoI question really comes down to overall effect. SoI healing is very, very small. It's a nonzero survivability boost for sure, but it's not going to save your life very often.

On the other hand, there are a lot of progression fights that do stress DPS, and SoT is a very large contribution. So there will almost certainly be cases where you running SoT makes the difference between a low-percentage wipe and a kill. The choice of SoI vs. SoT will thus come down to whether you feel that the extra DPS is a bigger benefit than the small survivability increase of SoI.
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Volitaire » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:58 am

Like theck said glyphing and specing for survival should already be priority. There is still alot of love for the SoT over the SoI but for the past couple of months I run almost exclusively with SoI and move to SoT only when we are really trying to push something with DPS.
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Phonic » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:16 pm

Personally, I dropped two points from RoL so I could pick up Hallowed Ground and Reck again :p Just makes my life a bit better.
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Schroom » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:47 am

To test the whole thing. I reglyphed the SoT into the SoI glyph also glyphed WoG and used SoI the whole fight. although I didn't use WoG on Cooldwon, but when I found it to be usefull.

and went on for shannox

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l28v ... 806&e=2223

so I did on that try

2097,1 healing dps(e)

and 7810.9 damage dps(e)

now I compared it to my last weeks try

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/gib1 ... 062&e=4477

strangely it seems I didn't do any healing at all back then(shame on me, but I think I was busy trying to do damage blow my cooldowns and make announcements) so 0 healing dps(e)

but 11128.4 damage dps(e)

------------------------------
the raid got > 2k more healing overall, most of it on me (as I also do holy radiance and WoG on raidmembers)
and lost about 3k raid DPS on the Boss.

imho

this is about a 1/6 to a 1/7 dps player we lose
in 10 man raids this could make a difference if:
a) we play against an enrage timer
b) low percent wipes because healers run oom
c) to shorten the encounter to e.g avoid the possibility of movement fails

in all other cases I think it could be OK to switch back to the selfheal glyphs and seal.

in a 25 man raid, I don't really see any difference.

what do you think?
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Torias » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:22 am

I just can't get out of the mindset that the healing gained is next to insignificant. I don't think the few thousand extra DPS matters, really, but the incredibly minor healing is not going to matter at all in a burst damage situation and you're probably just "stealing" those 2k HPS from your healers while your raid wide HPS stayed roughly constant. Unfortunately that's hard to judge from the logs as the one you linked where you didn't contribute any healing was a wipe with 5k higher RDPS for the whole raid, so more healing.

I think as a sticking point this SoI/SoT debate is somewhat flawed. Threat didn't matter before, it's not like we were glyphing and using SoT and other threat glyphs/talents because if we didn't we'd not be able to control aggro. We did it because with the cooldown on Word of Glory the healing we'd contribute was marginal at best. It's not going to save you from tank-death situations. It's very unlikely to save anyone else. Healing isn't as cut-and-dried as DPS where an absolute increase is an absolute increase, it's a more complex function of how much damage people are taking within what timeframe.

Personally I think it's not worth switching over to healing stuff, to say there's a survival benefit is to totally oversimplify the damage model in raids, particularly that leading up to tank deaths. Fortunately the changes have rendered threat next to meaningless so if you feel "better" helping with healing than with DPS you really have no reason not to. :)
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Worldie » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:19 am

It's a pretty common thought that "a few hundreds dps don't matter".

Then people jump into heroics and face the so dreaded 1%< wipes, and suddently change their mind.

A (extremely) tiny heal that isn't controllable, aka SoI, is not really going to save the tank. Consider it like a constant HoT. There is the chance that you get that heal in that very specific moment in which after you get hit, you remain with a number of HP lower than the heal, meaning that heal just saved you, but considering the size of the hits the tanks are taking (5 digits, often 6) compared to the heal of SoI (3 digits), you can probably see that right now it's not really going to matter in about 99.9% of the situations.

Between a pretty inconsistent and mostly overheal heal, and a few hundreds DPS, generally the DPS turns to be the more appropriate choice. That kind of heal is useful when you are not getting bombed by 40k heals every 2 seconds, usually, and that would mean you are a DPS or healer, and not a tank.

That's a quite common opinion nowadays for someone that faces heroic raids, at least I believe.
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:28 am

Schroom wrote:To test the whole thing. I reglyphed the SoT into the SoI glyph also glyphed WoG and used SoI the whole fight. although I didn't use WoG on Cooldwon, but when I found it to be usefull.

and went on for shannox

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l28v ... 806&e=2223

so I did on that try

2097,1 healing dps(e)

and 7810.9 damage dps(e)


Your 2097 HPS(e) is including WoG, and it's tough to compare two different fights because your WoG usage may have varied from one week to the next. It would be better to look at the raw numbers.

From your parse, SoI did 412948 healing over 6:56 (416 seconds), for 992 HPS. And 39.7% of that was overheal. So your effective healing output from SoI was around 600 HPS at best, and a good portion of that simply turned into overheal for your healers.
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Schroom » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:23 am

From your parse, SoI did 412948 healing over 6:56 (416 seconds), for 992 HPS. And 39.7% of that was overheal. So your effective healing output from SoI was around 600 HPS at best, and a good portion of that simply turned into overheal for your healers.


thank you theckhd
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Xriswest » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:40 am

I don't believe the actual healing from Seal of Insight is what is being questioned (as theckhd has shown, it's inconsequential). It's the Glyph of Seal of Insight "While Seal of Insight is active, the effect of your healing spells is increased by 5%." that's in question. Is the increase to Word of glory and Holy Radiance worth the switch in glyphs? I am in an extremely casual guild and do not have the experience, myself, to determine this. I simply remember fights like Chimaeron where popping Holy Radiance was a huge relief to the healers during the stack phase.

Thank you all for your insights,
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Re: Threat changes = spec/glyph changes?

Postby Schroom » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:43 am

yes but as I understand it, the glyph isn't good enough to be an all rounder.

as with other glyphs, it is an option tough, depending on Boss mechanics.

as you say for Chimearon it might be good. For Baloroc it would be worthless.
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