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Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

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Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Sophotrates » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:54 am

Hey,

First, sorry if this is posted in the wrong forums.


Yesterday we killed Ragnaros normal with me and a druid tanking. The druid is normally feral dps so this was his offspec.
It was the first raid that I was block capped so after a few wipes I asked my healers how the healing was on me, assuming it should be less spiky and in general easy to heal then previous raids. The surprising response was that the druid was easier to heal then me. And indeed, my damage taken was higher then the druid's damage taken (In my defense I have to say that the holy paladin beacon was on the druid all the time, though this should not matter that much).
After we killed him on the tenth try or something, once more my damage taken was quite a lot higher then the druid (around 10%-15% more).
Unfortunately we don't have a log of it and my skada didn't keep the data due to a Zul'Gurub run afterwards, so I cannot see where this damage came from.

I'm more then a bit bothered by this, mainspec being beaten by an offspec, as I got slightly better tankgear then the druid has (I assume, it's his offspec after all), I was using the Mirror of Broken Images almost on CD (traps, molten seeds, Ragnaros tank dot, ...) while he doesn't have it, and was, especially after the conversation with the healers, trying to avoid as much damage as possible with cooldowns, positioning and everything.

Tanking wise, the druid started the fight and then we did the same thing (taunting when stacks fall off) with the only exception of me taking both the adds in the second transition while he starts on Ragnaros. I used Holy Shield and (glyphed) Divine Protection on cooldown, while saving Ardent Defender and GoAK for dangerous situations and heavy damage (seeds, ...). I don't know how he tanked but I assume around the same.

So far I see 3 possible outcomes:
- Due to his high dodge (40%) compared to my dodge and parry (30%) he avoided taking hits and especially taking the tank dot more then I did (I often was at 3-4 stacks, didn't checked his stacks).
- Class balance: Paladins get consistent damage due to block cap but slightly higher then druids, who got more spiky damage (no clue, just assuming).
- ... I just suck.


In general, tell me that it's not outcome 3. :)

Thanks,
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Masanori » Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:39 pm

While I'm not educated enough on the bear tanking to offer any suggestions regarding how his damage was lower (though I'd say it's just the luck of the draw with dodging in the encounter), I will say that the Divine Protection glyph is likely a bad idea for this encounter. Ragnaros is about 60% - 70% melee white hits; use the Mirror of Broken Images to deal with the Burning Wound as necessary.

That's from personal normal mode experience, of course.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Meloree » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:32 pm

Recount/Skada total damage taken numbers are virtually meaningless. WoL reports are really the only way to analyze it. DP on cooldown, glyphed or not, and HS on cooldown are the worst possible ways to use them, save "not using them at all".

In general, total damage taken is a Bad metric even in the most ideal possible comparison.

More interesting is that the healers thought you were harder to heal. If the beacon stayed on the bear the entire time, that'll make a difference. If you're block capped with very low health, that will feel dangerous to healers that aren't used to it, they'll complain that you're hard to heal because magic damage will move your healthbar by a significant fraction. Healers never see total hitpoints, so much as they see big movements and small movements.

There's a lot of reasons why we can't actually help you without a parse, though, beyond saying "maybe this and maybe that". In my experience and judgement, though, a prot paladin right now is the most overpowered thing since the 3.1 DK. If your healers think you're harder to heal, they'll get used to it. Forget the comparision to the co-tank, you should ask them if you were harder to heal this week or last week (when not block capped, one assumes). If you're dying more easily than other tanks - you're probably doing something wrong. Without logs, we won't know what.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Iminmmnni » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:13 pm

Sophotrates wrote:Due to his high dodge (40%) compared to my dodge and parry (30%) he avoided taking hits

Your HS should more than make up for this as the tanking rotation effectively doubles it's uptime (you are using as soon as it's your turn to tank, aren't you?). 40% avoidance should be worse than 30% avoidance + 70% half damage hits.

Sophotrates wrote:I often was at 3-4 stacks

Why? 4+ stacks indicates a tank rotation failure. By phase 2 even 3 stacks should be rare since rag spends a lot of time casting other stuff instead of debuffing the tank.

Sophotrates wrote:- ... I just suck.

It's also possible it's your druid's taunting that is sucking.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:30 am

Eh, phase 1 me and my OT saw 4 stacks occasionally... Though usually it felt buggy (taunting during hammer smash, and next stack going to him by default before he remembers I taunted him 2 seconds ago)

But overall my healers say me as block cap is a *nice* benefit.. Stick with it and keep a log/WOL, my guild runs 2 loggers on progression runs just in case of d/c
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Forgrim » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:29 am

I like going up to 4 stacks to make sure vengeance is rolling nicely, but clearly, i won't need it anymore.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:01 am

Sophotrates wrote:Hey,

First, sorry if this is posted in the wrong forums.


I'm going to move this to Basic Training. In general, threads in AT&C should be focused on mechanics and non-trivial theorycrafting/calculations. This thread is more of a "what am I doing wrong" discussion, and even if it included a parse it wouldn't really belong in this forum.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Sophotrates » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:44 am

Thanks for all the input. I'll make logs for the next raggy kill if I just can get the damn thing to work. ;)
And yeah, sometimes 2-3 sec after a tank taunted, the other got a fresh stack. Kinda random though.

Cheers,
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Chanserv » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:47 am

I take less damage then our bear tank, But he also picks up Rag after both transitions and we take 1 big add each
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9ybepx83da3q636x/sum/damageTaken/?s=11981&e=12533

We take 5 stacks in p1-2... and 7 in p3 :/
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby Sur-Pseudo » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:44 am

recout/skada are terribad judgements of damage taken.. you can't look at the whole picture and get a good analysis unless you factor in "time tanking" (e.g. the target of melee attacks)

If he generally waited for 2-3 melee swings longer then you did to taunt, it looks like you took more damage even though you simply 'tanked' longer...


As for the stack-to-wrong-target-bug... It happens when he's in the middle of doing any ability and 'tries' to apply the stack... he's in the middle of dropping his hammer and can not.. So when he comes back up he is not targeting you, but still wants to put that stack on the old target.
^^ This is not "exactly how it works" but is my observation.. If i know my stacks will be clear before his animation is over (e.g. I have 3 seconds on my debuff and he looks away to hammer) -- I simply taunt early. This seems to reduce that 'bug' from happening so far.

On the reverse side, if you're trying to AVOID the extra stack.. Step out of melee as he is finishing the animation (as in, 2-3 seconds early).. seems he cant apply it to you since you're OOR even though he pre-determined you are the target --- but this could also be the other tank doing his job well like I mentioned above.

just 2 helpful tips, ultimately you should not need to rely on either of these now with the nerfs.. healers should be able to handle a 3rd or 4th stack on normal.
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Re: Paladin damage received compared to other tanks

Postby olorin00 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:29 am

Yes druid (and dk) take less overall damage than pally (and war), that doesnt make them better tank (far from it).

Overall damage only matter if healer got mana trouble and that doesnt happen a lot.

My main is a dk tank, I take less damage than pally (and others tanks for that matter), I heal (including shield) for almost half my received heal and still I would gladly switch place with a pally in term of damage taken.

What kill a tank isnt the total damage but the burst/spike damage and for that pally and war are in the best position.
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