Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:07 am

lythac wrote:
Dev Watercooler - Threat wrote: Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic.


This bugged me. Don't we use WoG anymore?


not as often as we used to :P

I think GC meant that instead of ShoTR/Inq, that WoG could once again become 'the thing'
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:08 am

When was the last time threat mattered across an entire raiding tier? Occasionally a tier will have a fight that requires tanks to do massive DPS or we get to a point where any more X survival stat wont make a difference so we go with threat for the lulz. But I truly don't remember a time where an entire tier's worth of content required a focus on threat as an equal to survival.
Last edited by Flex on Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby sahiel » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:09 am

Pretty much the only time I use Salv atm is on the first tank switch of a fight, where I have a full stack of vengeance, soon as my co-tank taunts I can salv myself and keep wailing away without worrying i'll pull back off him, better than dropping to auto attacks in case he gets a bad string of misses straight off the bat.

Now it looks like there's barely even needs a reason to be on the bars. I'm all for the "increased interaction" and having to actively use our cooldowns, that's great and what I love most about tanking, but I still can't understand why they'd increase threat when it's almost a non-issue as is atm other than fresh tanks with geared dps in 5 mans, and for them they could simply give tanks these increases as a temp buff whilst inside.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:11 am

Meloree wrote:
Torias wrote:Honestly I think rebalancing threat so that it "matters" again is beyond the scope of what's possible to do in a mid-expansion content patch, it's too game changing. Take comfort in the fact that a change like this is as close to "We dun goofed" as Blizzard are going to get.


Rebalancing threat is a significantly less complex task than redesigning 3 out of 4 tanks. This whole thing reeks of a "should be done for an expansion, not a patch" set of changes that I think has a non-zero chance of going horribly wrong.


I totally agree with this. I thought Vengence was specifically put in to be the knob they could turn (though I guess they have. But they turned it up, rather than down as I thought they would). It's not like the gear choices aren't there. It's not like they can't drop damage numbers (though folks will scream about any nerf, of course).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:13 am

This seems to be to try to get tanks to not quit the 5 man dungeons. Since they can't seem to get DPSers to play better in the dungeons (ie: not attack 3 different targets and not spam AoE on the pull), they're instead going to buff threat generation by a ton. Fury warriors, Frost DKs, and Ret Paladins rejoice because they have wonky threat mechanics. Tanks who still care about 5 mans rejoice. Raiders scratch their heads in confusion.

I, personally, don't see the point of making threat not matter but making us get hit and expertise in order for our defensive cooldowns to work. I guess it'd be too "hard" to make us worry about both? I could see a situation where I wanted to use a CD at the start of a fight but couldn't because I needed to use all of my abilities in the first 30s to generate threat, but that's mostly solved by having at least one CD that doesn't require anything to use other than a button push (like they are now). I guess they don't want to patch a higher level of Vengeance in for 4.3 when we're fighting Deathwing and DPS are outscaling us, but they've essentially done that by buffing the base threat modifier.

Dunno. I mostly liked having a threat set and figuring out what of my old pieces I could re-use somewhere else as I upgraded my primary mitigation set. I liked being able to choose which of those pieces I swapped in for X, Y or Z fight. I guess I'll enjoy our Ret paladin not QQ'ing at me to generate more threat in the first 30s so he can blow all his CDs at the start of the fight.

I don't want to go back to being a Word of Glory bot. Sure, it's fun to build up a shield right before taking a big hit or healing up right after the big hit to help smooth my HP, but if we're doing enough that we can't generate threat and move/interrupt/pick up adds/etc then how are we going to do that plus building WoG shields? There's a lot of levels of contradiction in their reasons for doing this.

I'm fine with the currently specified changes (though I don't need them and could really care less about them), but if they change us to have too much RNG crap (like DKs) then I'm out.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:17 am

In some ways, if they went back to some of the core mechanics, it would make more sense, where threat mattered, but without all the new-fangled complicated mechanics.

I think they are adding so much more of the "active" abilities, that they then need to dumb-down some of the core abilities in order to have the average player keep up.

I liked it back in the day when my ability as tank was much more in preparation in gearing, etc, and then being able to stand and take it with a basic rotation, rather than having tanking being like an xbox game. Perhaps that's too "booring" these days... whatever. Having the raid die because I'm too squishy should be my fault, and is something I can work on. Having the raid die because I'm a millisecond late on an interrupt because I was waiting for a third holypower or because of a half-second of lag is not fun.

Dumbing down core mechanics so they can add even more "active" talents (read buttons to push) is not fun.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby culhag » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:24 am

Also re: "Threat stats aren’t fun" (from the blog post)

Threat stats ARE fun ! I hate it when I miss a CS or a ShoR !
They're just useless for beating the current encounters.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:24 am

Flex wrote:When was the last time threat mattered across an entire raiding tier, let's say 80% of the fights in the given tier didn't favor stacking towards one end? Occasionally a tier will have a fight that requires tanks to do massive DPS or we get to a point where any more X survival stat wont make a difference so we go with threat for the lulz. But I truly don't remember a time where an entire tier's worth of content required a focus on threat as an equal to survival.


Sunwell. You could make the argument that in WotLK tanks at least had to be pushing a button once in a while to hold threat, especially in ICC. I know there was no "great tank threat crisis", but you could lose threat if you didn't run your rotation.

Cataclysm, thus far, threat has been a nonfactor.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:30 am

halabar wrote: Having the raid die because I'm a millisecond late on an interrupt because I was waiting for a third holypower or because of a half-second of lag is not fun.


Since this can happen even now, I think that is more a fundamental problem than tank gearing. It's the lag-unfriendly mechanics that make that happen... and my guild had a couple players stop doing stuff other than questing/alt leveling because they found their connection/computer not stable/fast enough for some encounters. I can't imagine what some fights are like for folks who are on some of the servers that commonly report lag times of a 1/4 second or more.

But some of those mechanics make the game fun and interesting rather than all glorified tank and spank. So I don't think they all need to go, indeed many I'd prefer if they stayed. I like having to actually move a boss occasionally, or gather some adds, or stay out of the bad. Thankfully Vengence allows me to do this without immediately losing aggro to the DPS who're better geared than me and just happened to get a crit streak.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:34 am

Meloree wrote:Sunwell. You could make the argument that in WotLK tanks at least had to be pushing a button once in a while to hold threat, especially in ICC. I know there was no "great tank threat crisis", but you could lose threat if you didn't run your rotation.

Cataclysm, thus far, threat has been a nonfactor.


I could have sworn most of the threat concerns in WotLK fell into the "more survival wont help" area.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:36 am

honestly, i was fine with threat
the problem isnt tanks and out threat

it is dps and being too dam trigger happy

i say lower vengence, make us tanks that know how to tank actually work for threat, and make dps die if they pull threat (or at least use defensive coodowns)
you want more interesting gameplay? there you go

what is the point of giving us MORE vengence?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:37 am

bldavis wrote:what is the point of giving us MORE vengence?


They aren't giving more vengeance, just less dumbly implemented.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:38 am

In a way, part of what GC's saying is that they've come to feel they don't want to build the game around the threat mechanic - which is what they would be doing if they tried to make threat matter again. Damage dealers need threat management abilities, tanks need to do high damage while surviving, and the game UI needs to communicate threat levels effectively - a number of interacting mechanics would need to be tweaked together.

If they remove threat, then they remove a couple of things for dpsers and work on tank gameplay. It's easier for them, and makes the game a little simpler for people to pick up.

Whether it's a good thing or not is a more complicated question.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:39 am

benebarba wrote:
halabar wrote: Having the raid die because I'm a millisecond late on an interrupt because I was waiting for a third holypower or because of a half-second of lag is not fun.


Since this can happen even now, I think that is more a fundamental problem than tank gearing. It's the lag-unfriendly mechanics that make that happen...


... and the direction of making the game "more interesting" by giving more buttons to push and things that have to be timed perfectly. And people wonder why average RFD tanks suck so bad. They are trying to compete with "active" games. I think that's a mistake to some degree. Having a lock need to do that to maximize dps is one thing, to require a tank to do it in order to survive is dumb.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:41 am

KysenMurrin wrote:In a way, part of what GC's saying is that they've come to feel they don't want to build the game around the threat mechanic


What are they building around then?...
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