Dev Watercooler - Threat

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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:17 am

Worldie wrote:I'm really hoping they are joking about the x5 threat...


Probably would depends on how much of the "Convert DPS resource to Survival gains" they do.

Say Holy Shield is changed to last 4 seconds per Holy Power used up to a maximum of 30 seconds (I'd also have the cooldown start when the Holy Shield buff falls off so your goal is to extend it to 30 seconds and hold it there) or Shield Block consumes additional rage at 10 rage per second, based on rage when casting, to extend its duration.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Ardrhyst » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:20 am

If it really comes to the point where I have to stack hit so that my Divine Protection doesn't fail to activate, I will be disappoint.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:20 am

I am standing in front of the boss for 5 years and didn´t get bored by it. I actually like it for a change. I don´t need to move around and catch adds or whatever. Sometimes it´s nice to just stand there and take it. Now new "fun" and engaging" things to do for a tank? Besides watching the surroundings, watching the boss, timing cooldowns properly, not stand in fire, generating threat (lol) etc. I am playing a MMO not a jump and run.

Active resource management, lol. Like DKs? Oh yeah I dislike complicated resource systems. It´s probably not a big deal but still. Paladin´s Holy power system is something that is more or less clunky and not needed at all. Not that it is a bit fun to watch but in the end it´s a chop chop chop, do something, with inconsequential stuff in between. Or retri style, proc, push the button stupid monkey and keep this damage buff up because, well just because. No idea why it isn´t baked into the basseline.
Arcane mages are another spec with resource management as integral part. We see how that turned out. Weak then overpowered when they lowered resource costs.

Sorry but Blizzard´s changes to resource management are mostly crappy. Probably the best thing they did was hunter focus instead of juggling around with mana for years that never worked without paladin assistance.

The only area where it works is healer mana it seems but they correct this all the time with higher costs, reduced mana regen from abilities and whatever.

Blizzard should just realize resource manipulation is not their specialty or it is really hard. So change it only when necessary.

Active defenses, big changes, huh? You can only tweak so much without breaking your game system.

I predict a giant screwup but hopefully, all tanks will be screwed equally and tank weird or squishyness will be the expected norm and nobody will complain besides established tanks, because No care about threat makes DPS happy. Unless they do the regular screwup and go all out when the tank hasn´t established threat like throwing pyro when the RL/tank is still counting till pull.

Sorry the whole thing reads like Oh we change the tank role fundamentally so you can join in jumping through stupid stuff, we screw around with your resources and hopefully it works in a year after implementation. And well threat, DPS don´t care about it, no fun , no fun, they weep, so well we rip it out, so we get more tanks for heroics.

They could rip out our damage abilities and replace it with a Tag, chase me button. Would be more honest.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:22 am

Ardrhyst wrote:If it really comes to the point where I have to stack hit so that my Divine Protection doesn't fail to activate, I will be disappoint.


Well Blizzard won´t be happy until we hit/exp cap and enjoy it.

Ok forget about the enjoy part.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:27 am

I'm..... not terribly excited by these changes. Wow.... big shocker! Shoju doesn't like the changes!

Hear me out.

I don't need more threat. I want threat to matter. I want to feel like my DPS are PUSHING ME to be a better tank. I want to find a way for threat stats to matter, not just dump them from gear except a fight like Alysrazor where suddenly it's "oh shit guys. I can't kill my bird because I have awesome threat, but I don't put out the dps to matter." Tying threat stats to mitigation isn't the solution. IT SUCKS as a DK to get those random times where your DS gets dodged / parried / missed 3 times in a row and you crater. That isn't fun and compelling gameplay. That is BS RNG that doesn't happen often enough for threat stats to truly matter, just enough to make people 'want' them to matter, and enough to make them a liability at times.

I have always taken pride from the fact that I knew how to produce a high amount of threat. In TBC it earned me my first raid slot in my first raiding guild. I got to stop healing, and step up and tank because I was good at producing threat. Even now, I pride myself on the ability to not have too many "whoops the DPSer pulled off of me in the first 30 secods" moments. I pride myself when I see myself doing fantastic damage. Pushing myself to do tons of damage and still live is part of tanking. This feels like that doesn't matter anymore.

My irritation could possibly be born from the whole "we like blood dk's" thing, as its REALLY annoying. We Blood DK's are really glad you like Blood DK's "active" style. I like it too, but our active style is full of fail in practice on any content that is 'hard'. Now, that's not to say that Warriors, paladins, and bears will be fail with an active style. They will probably be more interesting, more fun, more dynamic, while Blood DK's are still getting pounded into the ground. That is of course, unless they fix the problems with DK tanking at a high end level. (Mastery flying in the face of gearing up, blood shield being woefully poor mitigation, etc...)

If this threat change goes "fully" live before they fix the scaling / avoidance / mastery problems that DK's have, I might just be done with the game. I know that the threat changes are going to start this week, but if 4.3 gets here and it's still "We like DK tanks. We think they are in a good spot. We don't design bosses who can global tanks anymore" while Heroic 25m bosses are still globalling DK tanks I'm out. I'm done.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Torias » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:29 am

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2973255004?page=2#39

There's why the post disappeared. Threat coefficient changes etc. are being added as a hotfix THIS WEEK.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:31 am

Not sure if I should facepalm or not. Ah guess I can remove Salvation from my bars and finally keybind Hand of Protection.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:36 am

Even on a fight like Heroic Majordomo, DPS can't keep up with tank threat, post-30s-window, RIGHT NOW. With the current state of threat modifiers, double-damage DPS aren't keeping up with tanks on threat. Threat is already trivial, outside of one specific time window. Fixing that time window makes threat trivial all the time. To me, that sounds like an opportunity to make it matter all the time.


I like the quicker ramp on vengeance to help solve the initial threat over burst classes, but I think 5x tank threat gen is overcompensating for RDF. When I do randoms on my mage sometimes I do regular heroics for the faster queue, and I understand that if I pick a different mob from the tank then that is my mob and I need to kill it before it gets to me. And I can handle that and I expect other high end dps to be able to make that adjustment as well. I only get annoyed when I hear a well geared dps pick on a secondary target and complain about tank aggro. If geared dps can't handle aggro on a mob they should target the tank and use 'f'riend to verify they are on the propper target.

I also think that in most of the rare raid situations where threat is an issue, there are Paladins available with Salv and HoP. Salv works great for melee classes and HoP works wonders for casters. So that even folks who have no threat dumps can usually be protected from taking aggro if the raid works at it.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:38 am

If RDF is what they are adjusting for, why don't they just add a buff to RDF groups for tank threat?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:39 am

The thing is, right now in any raid with competent DPS / tank, threat is (and not even always) something to keep track of only for the first 30 seconds or so.
With tank threat being boosted by rhoughly 70% and Vengeance ramp up basically made 3x faster, I wonder why Hand of Salvation is in game at all.

On my hotbar it has just been substituted by Gift of the Naaru, it's probably more useful anyway.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Torias » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:47 am

Honestly I think rebalancing threat so that it "matters" again is beyond the scope of what's possible to do in a mid-expansion content patch, it's too game changing. Take comfort in the fact that a change like this is as close to "We dun goofed" as Blizzard are going to get.

Obviously, their changes to threat in Cataclysm haven't worked out and have actually just exacerbated old problems born in WotLK: Threat still doesn't matter, except for brand new tanks and for 30 seconds at the start of each fight, if even that much. And frankly that's just boring, frustrating and generally sucky all round.

This change acknowledges that by way of admitting defeat. The new revisions will trivialise threat 100% of the time instead of 99% of the time, and they'll be back to make another attempt at it come MoP (yay for silly acronyms). Hopefuly they've learned from this experience; but honestly even if they haven't I never found threat particularly compelling. When it mattered it was annoying and when it didn't it was less annoying.

Personally I maintain "threat sets" mostly for having fun with pushing the envelope on how much DPS I can do as a tank, and that was always the entertaining side of threat generation for me. These changes won't effect that at all.

Edit:
In fact, the only time I'm going to notice or care about this change at all once it hits in game is when I go Ret', because like Worldie said I'll have extra space on my bars where HoSalv used to be and extra space in my brain where paying attention to Omen to find out when I can start pressing buttons again used to be. That doesn't sound so bad to me, honestly.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby benebarba » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:58 am

It seems to me they basically just realized that the majority of raid tanks don't care about threat because vengence makes it not matter and they can instead focus on survivability - which is needed, so they are just embracing that progression and now making it so that that is viable in 5-mans. If it goes live, raid tanks can probably expect to still not care about threat stats and still care about survival. 5-man tanks would probably start to care less about threat stats and more about survival putting their gearing strategies in the same realm as progression raid tanks.

But they don't seem to be implying that we'll get automatic hits on bosses or even trash - just that those who go into a 5-man heroic trash pull in a raid survival set with 1% hit and only the expertise from the SoT glyph won't have to worry about the DPSer who didn't wait long enough pulling aggro. But said DPSer will still have to realize they can pull aggro if they don't let the tank do their thing.

I see the idea of more active mitigation being basically like the Holy Shield change: good tanks will shine brighter, bad ones will be more obvious. Personally, I've come to find an active role more interesting (which are nearly entirely because of fight mechanics) - and even in 5-mans, I don't really need to worry about threat stats with DPS with a clue though I do just so my DPS can hammer stuff all the harder. My survivability suffers as a result. In comparison, DPS have no reason not to maximize their DPS. Healers have no reason not to maximize their healing (throughput or burst as they feel) - so I think I can understand why GC feels that perhaps the idea that tanks need to balance threat and survival (which, as it ends up, they really don't - survival wins at the top it seems) is not really necessary.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby lythac » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:59 am

Dev Watercooler - Threat wrote: Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic.


This bugged me. Don't we use WoG anymore?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:03 am

lythac wrote:
Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic.


This bugged me. Don't we use WoG anymore?


My interpretation was removing the cooldown on it for prot again and balancing us around 100% of Holy Power going to WoG.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:03 am

Torias wrote:Honestly I think rebalancing threat so that it "matters" again is beyond the scope of what's possible to do in a mid-expansion content patch, it's too game changing. Take comfort in the fact that a change like this is as close to "We dun goofed" as Blizzard are going to get.


Rebalancing threat is a significantly less complex task than redesigning 3 out of 4 tanks. This whole thing reeks of a "should be done for an expansion, not a patch" set of changes that I think has a non-zero chance of going horribly wrong.
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