Remove Advertisements

Dev Watercooler - Threat

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby sahiel » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:13 am

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3300854#blog

Very interesting new watercooler from Ghostcrawler, seems like our threat mechanics and possibly mitigation is undergoing some large changes that will be on the PTR pre 4.3.

More interaction and control sounds like a huge plus imo, that said the repeated points he makes about dps creeping up on tanks doesn't really ring true at least in the raids I do, for the first few moments of a fight perhaps but after that even dps pushing 25k don't get close. I know every raid is different but tbh threat really isn't interesting (at least imo) at this stage, 15 seconds of "AMG shield missed!" then forget it, they seem to be somewhat of the same mind. Although these proposed changes would be (as he notes) fricking amazing for new tanks in 5 mans, allowing geared dps to actually, shock, dps!

Definitely looking forwards to seeing what they actually come up with, though the suggestion of Holy Shield being tied to Holy Power makes me.... nervous (although depending upon how it interacts it might actually help cut us back a bit, which we seem to need atm given where we stand in realtion to other tanks thanks to block capping) :P

Edit: Looks like they changed the link, updated, should work again.
Last edited by sahiel on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"Definition: Love is making a connection with another person against long odds."
"Clarification: Love is making a shot to the knees of a target 300 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope."
-HK-47
WoW Millionaire
User avatar
sahiel
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 am
Location: St Louis, MO

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:20 am

You posted same time as me; deleted mine since your post had commentary instead of just quoting.

I'd say it means they've seen how threat is a non-issue in raids and have decided they're actually fine with it that way, and now they're extending that down to all situations, so, like in the example he gave, and undergeared tank won't have trouble with overgeared dps pulling aggro.

For those at work, the most immediate outcome is this:
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:

The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.

Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Along with possible changes to give active mitigation.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6813
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:31 am

There are a couple of good points in that blog.

Active Mitigation? Good. It's important for the buttons we push to matter. I know I sound like a broken record, because I say that a lot.

Vengeance Tweaking? Also good. It's always been stupid. Hey, I say that a lot, too.

Threat Modifier Change/Threat never meaning anything ever again? Awful. Totally awful. This will be my new major bitching point if it goes live. I've already been bitching about how threat doesn't matter post 30s, and that it's RNG/Vengeance dependent early on, so that it's outside of tank control. Fixing Vengeance gave them the opportunity to retune Vengeance and make it matter. This idea is totally and completely awful.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:32 am

Has the post has been removed? It's giving me a 404 now.


Meloree - Do you actually find threat management fun? I've never really felt much either way about threat, except for the times I've been stuck with tanks that can't hold aggro.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6813
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Mukat » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:40 am

Could we get a repost for those that are work-impaired? This is super-relevant to my interests.
Mukat
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:30 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:43 am

Oh fuck, it IS gone now. I just read the whole thing, refreshed it to paste here and it's gone poof.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11000
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Mukat » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:44 am

Surely someone has it cached and can pull out the text!
Mukat
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:30 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:45 am

I found a copy.

Threat revisited

One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).

Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat.

Why have threat?

Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.

That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:

Why not have threat?

Throttling

As I said in the previous blog, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.

Tanks are busy

I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot -- everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.

Threat stats aren’t fun

We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)

We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way -- more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.

We don’t need a more complex UI

We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)

Dungeon Finder

I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob -- it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).

However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank -- it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.

So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.

It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:

The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.

Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes

You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.


Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.
Last edited by Nikachelle on Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 11000
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:47 am

It's still up on the EU side. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2774413
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6813
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:48 am

I'm really hoping they are joking about the x5 threat...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13303
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:54 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Meloree - Do you actually find threat management fun? I've never really felt much either way about threat, except for the times I've been stuck with tanks that can't hold aggro.


That question is a little bit of a red herring. Not every component of the game has to be fun on it's own. Is threat management "fun"? Not really, but it's engaging, and it keeps you tied into the game and your characters performance. And that certainly contributes to the fun factor of the game. We haven't really had to pay any attention to threat for the last 3 years of WoW, though - since WotLK hit. Aside from Hodir and Lady Deathwhisper, anyway. We don't have to pay attention to it now, with the exception of very early while Vengeance ramps. So threat management right now certainly isn't fun, or engaging, it's just frustrating. But there are fixes for that without removing threat management from the game even move.

Even on a fight like Heroic Majordomo, DPS can't keep up with tank threat, post-30s-window, RIGHT NOW. With the current state of threat modifiers, double-damage DPS aren't keeping up with tanks on threat. Threat is already trivial, outside of one specific time window. Fixing that time window makes threat trivial all the time. To me, that sounds like an opportunity to make it matter all the time.

I think threat should matter. I'm not sure threat management is "fun", but I don't think that question actually matters. Engaging gameplay is good gameplay. The sum of the whole is "fun", the question is irrelevant about components of the gameplay.

Consider the role of tanking: TPS - holding threat, is a lot like running a simple DPS rotation. Certainly for DPS they'd have to consider DPSing to be an integral part of the gameplay. As a tank, I consider holding threat to be an integral part of my gameplay - but it's being removed. Sure, we have other stuff to do - so does DPS most of the time. Maximizing your DPS in the face of doing the other stuff is what makes a DPS good. Maximizing your DPS as a tank in spite of the other stuff is part of what makes a tank good.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:54 am

Wow.... changes coming for hunter pets as well is my guess.

If that's true, and they don't turn table on it, I suspect they'll be dumping other things on the tank to do.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 9374
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Mukat » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:55 am

holy crap, i am excite
as far as hit/exp mattering again, i was really hoping they would make vengeance stacking something akin to death striking: you gain vengeance equal to x% damage taken in the past 2 seconds every time your auto attack hits. you can only gain vengeance to high levels by consistently hitting your target. this implementation seems more intelligent and streamlined though.
Mukat
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:30 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:03 am

I can see where they are going, I may even agree with them up to some point.
It was funnier in TBC when we actually had to keep Holy Shield up (and make sure we had the GCD/mana for it) or be oneshotted. Having to actively manage mitigation is definitively more involving in the tank role.

But they are a bit exagerating now, making threat easy is okish, but making threat unimportant is not. I already can hold aggro (the few times i tank) by just spamming Crusader Strike, I'll really be able to tank heroics with an autofire on Hotr...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13303
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Dev Watercooler - Threat

Postby culhag » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:09 am

What a shame.
User avatar
culhag
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:50 am
Location: France

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kelerei and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Kelerei and 1 guest