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[25 HM] Baleroc

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[25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Syyllinen » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:06 pm

Thought I'd get a 25 HM Baleroc thread going on. There's a thread for 10s already with some heroic discussion, but I guess it's best to keep things separated. After going through the logs for a few Baleroc 25 HM kills I noticed that atleast the top two parses for protection paladins used a single tank tactic. I'd like to hear how those of you who have single tanked it have gemmed and geared generally. Did you just go max CTC or go for more parry & dodge? And just general opinions how the fight feels compared to normal. Our guild hasn't had a single try on heroic mode yet, but I'd like to get a headstart before we even do. Thanks in advance!
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:27 pm

Single tanking is playing roulette. Most guilds who have single tanked did it because of the extremely strict dps requirements pre-nerf. With pretty much every dps doing the max they could, a week or two ago, with 2 tanks and 4 healers you would be able to get baleroc to something around 8-12% when he enraged, after which you would pull some brutallus-esque shenanigans like having max dodge rogues on top of threat, double deterrencing, mirror images, etc. to pull out another minute of combat while dps are dropping to bring him down. Back then, if you moved to single tanking it, you'd be able to get him to between 4-8% before enrage, and that drastically cuts down on the clutch moves you'd have to pull off to beat him. On the other hand, when he has decimation blade, Baleroc will attempt to hit 6 times in a row. Due to the massive hp of your tank, you will have to pray that your tank avoids enough of those hits to not die during deci blade, because 3-4 hits in a row -will- kill your tank no matter how good your healers are. If you single tank the fight, you are literally throwing away 60-75% of your pulls to rng in the hopes that you will get to enrage at a lower percentage.

Then they nerfed the boss this week from 217 mil to 195 mil hp. Not to mention that you have much more gear after a couple weeks of farming. There really is no reason to single tank it anymore unless your dps is extremely bad, and/or if your guild is masochistic. Two tanking makes decimation blades far more reliable, and success depends only on proper execution of countdown/torment spreading. For reference - last week we killed Baleroc with 1 tank/4 healers and he enraged at 7%. This week we did 2 tank/5 healers and he enraged at 0.8%.

If you do insist on single tanking however, CTC is essential. And Baleroc has a hidden 5% hit buff somewhere so 102.4% is not enough - you have to go up to 107.4%. Even unblocked inferno blade hits are enough to kill your tank; unblocked melee hits will deal almost as much damage as decimation blade. Avoidance stacking gives you a bigger chance to avoid deci blades, but that doesn't really matter when you've died to normal melee 20 seconds earlier. Even if you aren't single tanking CTC is probably ideal if you're the MT.

As far as the fight differences go, you will need 12 designated crystal soakers (max of 4 in melee) + 4ish additional ranged backup soakers. Prioritize shadow priests, boomkins, ret pallies as crystal soakers, and use two per crystal. Having a shadowpriest cooldown through an entire crystal at the start is also recommended for simplicity/healer stacks. The most important change between normal and heroic is torment spreading - people with torment will spread that debuff to anyone within 5 yards of him. However, this radius is amplified to around 10 yards if the person has countdown, so it's basically a struggle all fight long to keep the torment debuff as contained as possible (and hopefully off of your healers.) Once you have your tanking situation figured out, torment spreading is going to be the number one cause of wipes.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:10 pm

Kishandra wrote:Then they nerfed the boss this week from 217 mil to 195 mil hp. Not to mention that you have much more gear after a couple weeks of farming. There really is no reason to single tank it anymore unless your dps is extremely bad, and/or if your guild is masochistic. Two tanking makes decimation blades far more reliable, and success depends only on proper execution of countdown/torment spreading. For reference - last week we killed Baleroc with 1 tank/4 healers and he enraged at 7%. This week we did 2 tank/5 healers and he enraged at 0.8%.

There never was a reason to solotank it in the first place tbh.
And thats coming from the tank who did the world first kill as the only tank.
We figured one tank would give us more dps than 2, but thats not really the case.
We went 1tank 5 healers, as fewer healers were way to unreliable.
However going 2 tanks 4 healers, is a lot more reliable.
With one tank, you need pretty much 2 healers on you during decimation blade, when 2tanking, you need one healer on you as the decimation blade.
Also when solotanking its essential the healers heal people with as many torment stacks as possible, meaning a single soaker on atleast half the crystals is "needed" in order to stack their buffs fast enough.

Also, going up one more tank, and one more healer, should only bring you less dps, as your loosing 2 dps, and gain a half, i guess it still worked fine or even better due to the hp nerf, as its 10% of his hp.
Another thing to mention is that it now goes a lot slower for the healers to get the healing stack, meaning solotanking it now would just be stupid to try, as your not gonna get high enough stacks to actually heal the tank.


Kishandra wrote:If you do insist on single tanking however, CTC is essential. And Baleroc has a hidden 5% hit buff somewhere so 102.4% is not enough - you have to go up to 107.4%. Even unblocked inferno blade hits are enough to kill your tank; unblocked melee hits will deal almost as much damage as decimation blade. Avoidance stacking gives you a bigger chance to avoid deci blades, but that doesn't really matter when you've died to normal melee 20 seconds earlier. Even if you aren't single tanking CTC is probably ideal if you're the MT.

Less than CTC cap is very doable, but i agree it is prefered, no real reason stacking stamina on a fight like baleroc.
Killed it this week with 102.41% ctc gear, he only hit me 79 times, and one was unblocked, and one was a miss.
I just use TB trinket for the inferno blade, makes a pretty big differance.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:19 pm

We did our first kill with 4 healers 1 tank, after hitting multiple sub 2% wipes with 4 healers 2 tanks. It was an RNG clusterfuck that I wouldn't recommend to anyone. With the extra gear from another reset we killed it last week with 4 healers 2 tanks, which was a lot more stable, and with the changes from the hotfix killing it with 5 healers + 2 tanks is by far the most sensible way to do it (killed it comfortably within enrage this week).

Gearwise I stuck with auto-attack CTC (+1%, as noted in this thread). I didn't bother to go for full CTC for inferno blades as I rotated tb trink/glyphed DP for that (though the inferno blade buff lasts 12 seconds, his first swing is usually a little delayed meaning that one 10 second cd will pretty much cover one blade. There's a small chance of an unblocked inferno blade swing occuring when you don't have a CD to cover it, but I wasn't able to get 107.4% with the gear I had at the time.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Syyllinen » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:26 pm

Got some very thorough answers here :) which are greatly appreciated, thank you. In all honestly I might have underestimated the HP nerf a bit. I was still under the impression that the fight has a very tight enrage timer (obviously nothing like the pre-nerf of it, but tight). But from what I've gathered from here so far single tanking is a) overkill b) playing Russian roulette and losing almost all the time.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby sakkdaddy » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:12 am

Does Baleroc get parry hasted or something? We were noticing some weird things, like 2 hits almost instantly very often, and weren't sure if this was expected or something was causing it to happen that we could prevent.

Also, can anyone confirm this hidden +5% bonus to hit? Our MT wasn't aware of this and it will take some gear changes to get there, as he was just barely able to get 102.4%. :(



edit: nevermind! I see he dual wields, so that's why there are double hits.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Samiam » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:32 pm

Hello im a first time poster in these forums, I love this site ty to all the people who keep it maintained and to those who have usefull information for pally tanks like myself. I am a MT for a progresion guild working Heroic baleroc currently. last night something very very odd happened and maybe someone can help point out why this happened. With a CTC set of over 107.5% (which seems to be the sure way to make sure we get past any hidden exp this boss has I was one shot by an inferno blade from 100% to dead without blocking at all.

[16:58:45.305] Ktrues Divine Light Samiam +0 (O: 122002)
[16:58:45.312] Samiam Censure Baleroc 3786
[16:58:45.600] Samiam Righteous Flames Baleroc 7571
[16:58:45.609] Chesticles Vampiric Embrace Samiam +0 (O: 343)
[16:58:45.671] Chesticles Vampiric Embrace Samiam +0 (O: 269)
[16:58:45.671] Samiam Seal of Truth Baleroc *2615*
[16:58:45.671] Velaeta Lifebloom Samiam +0 (O: 29210)
[16:58:45.671] Baleroc Inferno Strike Samiam 651940 (O: 2762, A: 5294, R: 81481)
[16:58:46.018] Samiam dies

Here is the log and maybe someone can figure out what I maybe missing:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-pqef227tmg5d3zmz/sum/damageTaken/?s=7568&e=7724

this is the first night of progresion and attendance was light but we decided to get our healers learning the fight so that we can drop or plug in any healer we need to at a later time. That is why we are 6 healing. We are also 1 tanking the fight.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby anafielle » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:43 pm

Hey y'all, we are now working on this as well. We are attacking it with 2 tanks at the moment- I am taking the inferno blades & our DK is taking decimations.

I am worried about the stacks of blazing glory. He only needs 1 at the start of the fight to get himself over 250k, but he will grab a couple just from taking decimations.... Right? Which will harm my ability to eat inferno. I was told that we need to be careful about this. How do you avoid the decimation blade tank getting too many stacks, or is it a complete nonissue?
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Kerriodos » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:06 pm

anafielle wrote:Hey y'all, we are now working on this as well. We are attacking it with 2 tanks at the moment- I am taking the inferno blades & our DK is taking decimations.

I am worried about the stacks of blazing glory. He only needs 1 at the start of the fight to get himself over 250k, but he will grab a couple just from taking decimations.... Right? Which will harm my ability to eat inferno. I was told that we need to be careful about this. How do you avoid the decimation blade tank getting too many stacks, or is it a complete nonissue?


Complete non-issue. You can easily cooldown every Inferno Blade using trinkets/DP, Shield Wall, and Pain Sups (very rare to need them). To minimize it, however, we have our decimation tank not taunt until after I've taken the first hit: I use either AD or a dodge trinket on decimation if possible, and he doesn't taunt until I either get hit once, or I'm below 90% with AD down. It's not particularly rare to simply tank through a full decimation with AD covering most of it, or a nice avoidance streak.

When cooldowning, also keep in mind that you have a little more than a full GCD before the first swing on any Blade phase.

The only concern with this is you need to communicate who is tanking with your healers a lot, but if you have a disc priest for each healing team the danger of that is mitigated, as Absorbs DO affect Decimation Blade (hence why AMS works where pretty much everything else doesn't).

The only time tanks should be in real danger is the start, while healers build stacks (use a shadow priest to soak a full one and lust early, and they should be set), or during Decimation. You will have more tank deaths to normal melees than Inferno Blade, in my experience, but you learn to time Holy Shield with healer switches which handles that pretty well.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby anafielle » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Ok that is good to know. Someone (definitely not meloree *cough*) was telling me on real id last night that that could become a big problem with 2 tanking. We haven't gotten too far into the fight yet- although if I remember right we did have a great 40 or 45 percent ish attempt where the healers went oom

Our dk is so heavy on avoidance that I think he was avoiding all but 2 deci blade hits. We can have me take the first hit if his survivability there becomes an issue, but from the small amount of work we've done so far it seemed fine.

It is interesting to hear you confirm something I felt was true just last night - normal melee hits on me were generrally more dangerous than inferno blade which so far I haven't died to. I did notice that inferno resets his swing timer. I was doing it like this- I watch the timer on his buff, use trinket or dp at 13 sec left on the buff and catch the first swing, hit HS at like 8or 7 sec left, and that seems to do it.

I have died a lot outside inferno. He hurts! I tried to use gank and ad as aggressively as possible outside of inferno, and ended up with a couple pretty consistent places where they should be used.

Thanks for the tips!
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Sacred Duty: Theck, Meloree & Ana's blog

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby anafielle » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:35 pm

Sorry, iPad fails at editing and log browsing so these posts are poorly edited (I am out of town) and also, double post.

Anyways- outside inferno blade. Pickup felt very dangerous, I was popping ad there a lot and dying there a lot. Bale at like 5 or 6 stacks was very dangerous due to whatever the healers were doing, was shield walling there. I'm sure erer are more places, but our attempts were many times quite brief :)
Anafielle, 90 Retribution Paladin in <Something Wicked> :: Armory :: Twitter

Sacred Duty: Theck, Meloree & Ana's blog

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Kihra » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:55 pm

anafielle wrote:Sorry, iPad fails at editing and log browsing so these posts are poorly edited (I am out of town) and also, double post.

Anyways- outside inferno blade. Pickup felt very dangerous, I was popping ad there a lot and dying there a lot. Bale at like 5 or 6 stacks was very dangerous due to whatever the healers were doing, was shield walling there. I'm sure erer are more places, but our attempts were many times quite brief :)


One of the most frustrating things about this fight is how little control you actually have over your own survival. In the early attempts, while your healers figure out how to build stacks properly and how to not be on the wrong target, you're just going to fall over dead a bit. :)
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Kihra » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Also, single tanking this fight after the health nerf is just not a good idea. It's way riskier to use only one tank. Two tanks has the following benefits:

(1) If a tank dies, it's not a wipe. The other tank can take over, you can get battle rezzed, and just keep going. With one tank, it's just over.

(2) Healing the Decimating tank is way easier because his stack count is much lower. If healers are keeping pace with the Inferno tank, then they'll be way ahead on the Decimating tank when the time comes to heal that. Basically Decimating gets way easier.

(3) Using two tanks you can employ a "Hit and Swap" strategy. When Decimating comes out, the Inferno tank can keep tanking until a Decimating finally lands and takes away 90% of the health. At that point, the other tank can taunt. By distributing one hit to the Inferno tank and the rest to the other tank, you make the mechanic even easier to deal with.

(4) The paladin MT can actually Hand of Sacrifice the Decimating OT for a 30% damage reduction. Because the MT has a gigantic health pool later on, this means that Hand of Sacrifice can effectively act as a 30% DR cooldown for the entire Decimating period. You can often use this trick *twice* during the fight.

Compare with the single tank approach where:

(1) You just wipe if the tank dies.
(2) Healing Decimating is much more challenging because the stack differential between the healers and the single tank will be much smaller.
(3) The tank has to take every single Decimating hit and is basically playing Russian Roulette with avoidance.
(4) No useful Hand of Sac (other than maybe early on).

The one pro is that the pally tank can use AD for 20% reduction on Decimatings and a death save, but that will only cover two of them.
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby anafielle » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:11 pm

Kihra, those are all awesome amd fantastic recommendations. Thanks!

I definitely feel like 2 tanking is the way this fight is meant to be done and I hope we continue to do it this way. It really des make life easi healing the deci tank, and frees up more cool downs for both tanks.

I will definitely sac our deci tank next time we see this.
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Sacred Duty: Theck, Meloree & Ana's blog

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden
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Re: [25 HM] Baleroc

Postby Kerriodos » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:16 pm

I was under the impression that Damage Reduction CD's don't work on Decimating Strikes, as it is 90% or 250k (whichever is more). Trying to Shield Wall, for example, does nothing for our Decimation tank. Absorbs work, however, so I'm wondering if that's accounting for the DR you're seeing? Though considering Sac transfers the damage instead of simply reducing it, I could see how that could work. Or I could just be in the wrong entirely?
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