Tank Comparisons...again

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:14 am

Astronomic wrote:
Meloree wrote:Either way, if you'ld like to compare the difficulty in playing tanks, you really need to be looking at the non-rotational factors. Positioning tools, survival tools, utilities, passive/baseline mitigation vs active, etc. Comparing threat rotations is completely missing the point.

Most of that part comes down to the player since blizz has over time tried to make tools fairly equal across the board.

I'd argue that that's almost exactly backwards, as the rest of your post goes onto suggest. The threat rotation is fairly equal between classes - yes, really. Calling one more difficult than the other is really splitting hairs because no tank threat rotation takes more than ~1% of your attention. Utility, tools, and mitigation are what actually separates the classes and playstyle.

The difference between a paladin and a warrior is Intercept, Intervene, Charge, and Sunder against Divine Guardian, Hand of Protection, Hand of Salvation, and Hand of Freedom. It's Shockwave and Concussive Blow against Hammer of Justice. It's AoE mitigation debuffs against Divine Shield. It's Sentinel against Holy Shield, and Critical Block against Block Capping.

It's not in trying to decide if I/SDSotr > Inq > CS > AS > HoW > J > Cons > HW is easier or harder to pull off than TC(for debuff) > Demo (for debuff) > SS > Rev > Rend > Dev. Because for all that that string of text looks complex, it's very easy to pull off either one in practice, and there is no consequence for failure. Threat is so trivial in Cataclysm that you can fuck up your threat rotation all you want, and nobody will ever notice. Fuck up your survival stuff, and everyone notices that their tank just got fine red misted.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:25 am

like ppl have said, no tank is harder to play then any other really
there are ppl who prefer warriors, pallies, bears (like me) and DKs

its all a matter of opinion
any tank can do well at any fight, some just do better at a specific fight then others

tanking is more skill of staying alive then performing your maxthreat rotation perfectly, esp now in cata
but then that is why i like tanking
i get to be the big bad ass bear or guy wrapped in steel that pisses off the boss and makes it so all you squishies can do your glass cannon thing!

sure there are differences between the classes, but if all 4 tanks were exactly the same, i know I would hate it
the reason i have all 4 tanks is for the variety in tanking styles
there are times where i want to be a bear, times that i want to be a BA that gets pisses and slams my shield in your face
other times i feel like being a holy avenger and protector of the weak (and squishy)
and still other times i want to challenge bosses to make my undead ass dead again

most of us are (or were) tanks
it doesnt matter what class(es) we play(ed) we all have the same job to do

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:05 pm

bldavis wrote:
....any tank can do well at any fight*.....

*In normal modes, and most 10H.

I have a distinct impression that either pre-4.3 or patch 4.3 (my money is patch 4.3) we will see some sort of major change to DK tanks that stop them from being benched in 25h content. It is a real problem that is becoming more pronounced as more guilds clear content. When it was just the top tier guilds it was easy to brush aside the numbers, but as more and more guild complete content, the DK representation %'s are dropping in 25h for tanking, and band aid solutions will just be band aids that aren't going to work as long term fixes. DK's just aren't able to survive the massive burst unless tank and healer are near perfect, and even then, you can get burst down to dead inside half a second, and there is no amount of healing that could have saved you, because it was melee swing, + dot or raid damage mechanic, or debuff.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Amirya » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:15 pm

Kraziness wrote:I must have amazing luck then, I have never had the Grounded Plasma shield fail on me, hell didn't even know it could. Guess I will not bother with it anymore!

I've had the shield fail on me in the past. Luckily, it was in 5 mans, so no big danger to me (more cooldowns, and awesome healers).

However, knowing that issue existed, I switched the shield to the rockets when we started raiding. I kinda miss the benefit of the shield, whereas I use the rockets only when we're wipe recovering, and when I pull Atramedes.

I'd be afraid of the shield on even Atramedes trash!

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:02 pm

People shouldnt really use rocketboots eather since them failing is far from optimal eather, but then, if its one of those "if i dont use it now i wipe the raid" i guess you might aswell take your chances, cuz youve wiped the raid if you wouldnt have it, now its 50/50 (maybe not 50% chance to fail, but feels like it sometimes)

I actually have a funny story about the rocket boots. It was the very first time we were facing Atramedes, and I and our Ret Pally-Engr both ran upto the bell to summon the boss. I managed to win and activated it, but apparently the ret pally activated his rocketboots at the last moment to try to get there. Instead it failed and sent him like 50 yards straight up as the bell activated. The entire raid claimed it looked like the activation had catapulted him upwards. He fessed up after landing. :lol:
Last edited by Hrobertgar on Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:19 pm

God I miss rocket boots.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Turntail » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:01 am

Just on playstyle alone, tanking on my paladin seems much easier than on my warrior. Making it a bit boring. And not having the mobility (charges, leap) makes me feel constrained.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby masterpoobaa » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:45 pm

Prot having access to Rets Judgement speed boost talents would be super nice.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Destruktive » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:04 pm

Meloree wrote:Bears are probably behind warriors by a bit. But bears, warriors, and DKs are all playing in the same league, at least. Paladins right now are completely out of line. The worst tank imbalance since the 3.1 era DK. No, I'm not exaggerating or kidding. Remember TBC? Every other tank is crushable, and has no compensation for it. Right now paladins are a) the only uncrushable tank, b) somehow get to have two sub-30s survival cooldowns on top of the "default loadout" that everyone gets, c) have Bubble and LoH and BoP and BoSac and DG for helping to outcomp fights (warriors have to give up a survival cooldown to use their raid cooldown), d) can out-gimmick the gimmick fights better than anyone else with an uncapped cheat death ability and that whole blockable elemental damage travesty.

With normal-mode Firelands gear, and 2 heroic pieces, I'm at about 208k raidbuffed hp while block capped. The "cost" in stamina is around 1200 right now. When there was a major stamina sacrifice to make in order to block cap, there was a semblance of balance. Better for some bosses, worse for others. Now that the cost of block capping is significantly cheaper, and getting cheaper still with every upgrade, it's a no brainer. We're the hardest tank to burst down, and we have an amazing array of short cooldown anti-burst options. Oh, and hey - if mana still mattered (it doesn't) we're cheap to heal, too - entirely because the burst risk is lower.

Yup. Fair and balanced.

I know this was written about a month ago, but this is not accurate because top warriors are block capped right now. Although a 391 warrior will have ~175 unbufffed hp vs a pallies ~200. Still I would say critical block makes up for that and then some.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:39 am

Indeed, warriors with access to BiS gear can get block capped, they're just in the situation paladins were last tier where they have to go full mastery to get there. But when they're at block cap that also generally means that of their 70% or so blocks, about 45-50% or so (multiplicative ofc, ~30-35% of total) are crit blocks, which is some pretty sick damage reduction. Paladins still have more diversity in their CDs and raid util but from a pure damage intake/variance point of view warriors are catching up fast.
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