Tank Comparisons...again

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby RedAces » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:22 am

It does not. But if you glyph focused shield it will refresh 1 Stack on the target.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Treck » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:31 am

Worldie wrote:
masterpoobaa wrote:Only thing I miss is that AS no longer spreads Seal of Truth stacks around.

Are you sure about this? I could swear it still does...

I think there was a whole topic about people whining on this change.
It dont see the reason for the change, but it also has zero inpact on anything really, it just does not matter at all.

Focused shield does keep the stacks up, would have thought the main target would always get a stack, but nope, only with the glyph.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kraziness » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:37 am

Worldie wrote:You shouldnt really be using Grounded Plasma Shield if you are serious about tanking.


Why not? It's from engineering, I am not giving up anything else that I could enchant on my belt, certainly not going to put rocket boots on my belt for use while tanking (too many backfires imo) seems silly to me not to use all the tools my profession gives to me, it's like saying a herbalist shouldn't use the Lifeblood (or w/e it's called) perk.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Levantine » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:47 am

I heard the Plasma Shield backfires are hilarious.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Treck » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:50 am

Maybe cuz if the shield fails, your stunned? aka dead with a boss on you.
People shouldnt really use rocketboots eather since them failing is far from optimal eather, but then, if its one of those "if i dont use it now i wipe the raid" i guess you might aswell take your chances, cuz youve wiped the raid if you wouldnt have it, now its 50/50 (maybe not 50% chance to fail, but feels like it sometimes)
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Torias » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:50 am

Off the top of my head, the malfunction that causes you to have a 100% chance to be crit would be a good reason not to use the Grounded Plasma Shield, unless you and your raid are fine with the fact that at any given moment when you use the thing you might cause a wipe, which is fine (if weird) if you are. The one that roots you seems pretty bad, too, but it's less cut-and-dried since plenty of times it might not matter at all.

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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kraziness » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:59 am

I must have amazing luck then, I have never had the Grounded Plasma shield fail on me, hell didn't even know it could. Guess I will not bother with it anymore!
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:25 am

It's kinda like the worst failure mode of the rocket boots, where it burns a large portion of your health - I never saw it at all for months, then had it happen repeatedly over a few days.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:51 am

Astronomic wrote:There are several moves left out of both lists but all in all I just think bears have a more complex "core rotation"

Sigh.... Ok. here is what I left off the list.....

Code: Select all
Druid Version ------------> DK version
Enrage -------------------> Horn of winter
Taunt --------------------> Taunt
Challenging Roar ---------> Death Grip
Skull Bash ---------------> Mind Freeze
Stampedind Roar-----------> Uh... You got me there, unless I need to PoF during a fight.
Battle Rez ---------------> Battle Rez.


while Dks have more defensive CD management and moves that might be pressed one a minute like icy/plague/outbreak/bone shield. Amount of moves =/= complexity of class. I just feel like I can press one button at a time on a DK because I can see when those runes are becoming available while on a Bear I am constanly mashing buttons like a rogue so the instant I have enough rage to do something I can do it, while having to hold off sometimes if I see mangle comming up but might not have enough rage for move "x" + mangle. Also manging rage with mauls, knowing when its safe to maul, or when you might be rage starving yourself. And since its off GCD you will be mashing maul while mashing other things. I think bears can feel more hectic while DKs can feel more controlled. The only real chance of uncertainty in the DK "core" rotation Runic Empowerment. So basically im saying my keyboard and fingers like DKs better


So you are saying that because you have to 'button mash' on a druid it's harder and more complex? You make the same choices on a DK:

You said "I can do it, while having to hold off sometimes if I see mangle comming up but might not have enough rage for move "x" + mangle"

Well, I have to decide Do I need to refresh my diseases, now, early, while I have BS running so that I'm able to DS and keep BS up? Can I Rune Strike now? Am I going to need to Lichborne soon? Can I hit Bone Shield Now? Is it going to interfere with DS? IS Tap up so that I can do it and not mess up my runes?

By your logic of more skills to manage doesn't mean something is more complex, button mashing doesn't make something more complex. If you hit maul early, and rage starve yourself for a few seconds late in a fight, you aren't going to screw yourself and get gibbed in the process because you screwed up and now you don't have your mitigation available. Button Mashing != harder more complex.

-Also I have quite a few of those DK moves that are off GCD macrod together (Raise Dead + death pact, Lichborne + Death Coil) while I cant do that with maul because I don't want to accidently rage starve myself.


Yes. You can macro those together. That doesn't mean that you are managing less, you just saved yourselves some keybinds. The decision making process to use them is still there.

-Yes you use thrash when you have 3 lacerates and nothing else to hit, rage allowing :P

Well, I leanred something that will make me a better bear

-Yes you have runic power as a resource but we have lacerate stacks as well which in its own way is a resource, much like combo points.

I don't really think that managing 3 lacerate stacks so that you can then thrash then pulverize is quite the same as a bar that fills 100-130, and you need to spend that resource so taht you don't waste it, and still have some left over.

- Also gearing a DK is alot more straight forward than bear imo. Since for bears mastery/hit/expertise/crit are all defensive stats as well with different weights. I could see you agruing DS windows with hit/exp but u'd need to miss 3x in a row to miss your window.


I would disagree. There is a lot of debate going on right now between dk's.
Do you gear for avoidance (some are saying it's better now, I don't see it)
Do you gear for mastery (personally the more stable choice)
Do you need threat stats or are you comfortable with being able to miss your DS's. 1

- I hope you don't think I ment runes literally speak to you. Its a literary device called personification. They say runes are like tetris because you see a shape and you hafta make it fit in the right hole (so to speak!). There is usually only 1 way to go to maximize your rotation. If you put the shape in the wrong spot you screwed yourself. Yes I'll agree that the Dk rotation is unforgiving if you hit the wrong thing, but its not hard to stay on track. I would analogize this in the following manner: DK's rotation to me is like a straight road with sheer cliffs on both sides. Bears are like a very curvy road but on a flat plane.

No. I didn't think you meant that. I found your personification to be hyperbolic, and use hyperbole of my own. There is usually only 1 way to go to maximize your rotation, and it's not always the easiest to see. Refreshing diseases, keeping runes and RP for CD's, making sure blade barrier is down and that you aren't wasting taps, not wasting rune strikes or over using runestrikes, it isn't as easy as you are making it sound. If you truly are operating the class that way, you can and will succeed, but it isn't optimal to do so. I now understand why Lev was so irritable about my lack of care for procs during wotlk. Sure, I got the job done, but I could do the job with greater results if I worked harder at it.

-Maybe I'm just kinda underwhelmed after playing all specs of lock back when DoTs clipped and feral kitty.

That is a distinct possibility. I can't stand warlocks or cat or even Shadow priests because of those very reasons. I micro manage my DK, and that is just about enough micro management. I don't think I had the patience to deal with the clipping and watching that it required to play those optimally.

I'm not trying to argue with you for the sake of an argument. I'm trying to make the point that there is playing a DK tank, and succeeding, and there is playing a DK tank optimally and having greater results. The two things are not the same.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:01 am

Torias wrote:The one that roots you seems pretty bad, too, but it's less cut-and-dried since plenty of times it might not matter at all.

What you guys don't know about the "Magnetized" side effect, is that it also taunts everything in 10 yds range for 6 seconds.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Levantine » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:04 am

Shoju wrote:I now understand why Lev was so irritable about my lack of care for procs during wotlk. Sure, I got the job done, but I could do the job with greater results if I worked harder at it.

Oh my. <3
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:19 am

Hey, I'm man enough to realize I was wrong. And when I realized I was wrong, things got so much easier. Was I able to tank without being optimal? Sure. Was it easier and more efficient when I started planning for procs, and making them matter? Abso-freaking-lutely.

So thanks lev, you made me a better player :)
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:18 am

I see the claim that "this tank is easier to play than that tank" on a regular basis, and I'm very curious about context.

A lot of this page seems to be related to the threat rotation, and I think that's among the silliest debates we could possibly have. It's putting way too much weight on something that in Cataclysm is the smallest and least important part of a tank's job - and also the easiest. Tank threat rotations are easier than DPS rotations in general, and not one of the four rotations is in any way hard to pull off. The DK's threat rotation still isn't all that difficult, until you toss in all the other stuff that tanks are supposed to be worrying about (living) - in which case timing DS becomes important and that impacts the threat rotation. You can make an argument that paladins are the second hardest class to play by the same reasoning - no other tank has to worry about altering their threat rotation for survival.

Either way, if you'ld like to compare the difficulty in playing tanks, you really need to be looking at the non-rotational factors. Positioning tools, survival tools, utilities, passive/baseline mitigation vs active, etc. Comparing threat rotations is completely missing the point.

EDIT: Fixed the wording on something.
Last edited by Meloree on Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:32 am

Meloree wrote:I see the claim that "this tank is easier to play than that tank" on a regular basis, and I'm very curious about context.

A lot of this page seems to be related to the threat rotation, and I think that's among the silliest debates we could possibly have. It's putting way too much weight on something that in Cataclysm is the smallest and least important part of a tank's job - and also the easiest. Tank threat rotations are generally easier than DPS rotations in general, and not one of the four rotations is in any way hard to pull off. The DK's threat rotation still isn't all that difficult, until you toss in all the other stuff that tanks are supposed to be worrying about (living) - in which case timing DS becomes important and that impacts the threat rotation. You can make an argument that paladins are the second hardest class to play by the same reasoning - no other tank has to worry about altering their threat rotation for survival.

Either way, if you'ld like to compare the difficulty in playing tanks, you really need to be looking at the non-rotational factors. Positioning tools, survival tools, utilities, passive/baseline mitigation vs active, etc. Comparing threat rotations is completely missing the point.



That is what I've been trying to focus on, the points that alter the threat rotation. The choices you have to make with runes and RP based on debuff timers, CD timers, when you need to do what, keeping BS up, and Blade Barrier UP, and gaming RE procs, and the like. So much of the DK's survival is tied to active choices that simply, blindly, DS-ing your way through content is putting a more work on the healers.

It is honestly the biggest thing that I try and work on with my DK, and one of the things I'm always looking for better ways to do.

Survival is one of the biggest reasons why as a Blood DK I love Scales of Life. 1 min CD times it right with Vampiric Blood. So now, I turn that overheal (which invariably happens, and counts self heals as far as I can tell), I can turn into a huge chunk of healing by macroing it into VB.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Astronomic » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:39 am

Meloree wrote:Either way, if you'ld like to compare the difficulty in playing tanks, you really need to be looking at the non-rotational factors. Positioning tools, survival tools, utilities, passive/baseline mitigation vs active, etc. Comparing threat rotations is completely missing the point.


Most of that part comes down to the player since blizz has over time tried to make tools fairly equal across the board. To me pallies, wars, and bears are more mitigation based where as DKs are a little more gimmicky with taking more damage but being able to heal up more so than others. Pallies are able to block cap atm which is kind of off balance. I think warriors and DKs have the most varied cooldowns with some nifty things like AMS, deathgrip, dark sim, spell reflect and disarm among their normal things like how every tank has a 50% dmg redux CD. Bears bring the most raid helping things with motw, 5% crit+, more bleed damage, armor redux, a battle rez, demo roar, and mangle slows. I feel when I play my warrior the initial threat generation is a bit lacking behind the others, and the rotation is a bit clunky. My DK certainly feels more spikey than the others and I know they just flat out dont have as much mitigation through armor by a significant amount.
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