[10H] Baleroc

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[10H] Baleroc

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:20 am

So, we went into this thinking the DPS requirements would be ridiculous to beat the enrage, but this doesn't seem to be the case. We're 2 healing and 1 tanking, and seemed to be well on track to beat the enrage, but were having issues keeping people alive through the early Torments, since we're trying to get people to stack them really high so the healers get a good stack quickly.

I've read about having an Spriest with the BH trinket take the first one, trinket at around 12 stacks, then dispersion after, and manage to solo the thing. Ours sadly doesn't have the BH trinket, and our holy/disc priest switched to shadow since we're 2 healing, so the only raid cooldown we seem to have available for the spriest is the SLTotem from the Resto Shaman. Any other tips on prolonging the first Torment?

One of our Frost DKs also managed to die every torment, but I'm fairly sure he was just bad at not getting Tormented from proximity to someone before his turn to soak.

We'd really like to stick to a rotation of just 4-5 people rotating crystals, so the rest can just stand and turret the boss. Would also make movement simpler since we'd have fewer people standing around able to spread Tormented. But if we can't get our spriest and DK's survivability up some, we're probably going to be doing a full 2 person rotation for every crystal, with 6-7 people switching in sequence.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby MomysLidlMonsta » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:42 am

The problem is that you can't avoid spreading/refreshing the Tormented debuff with Countdown. We have 4 dps in a normal rotation and the other 3 on standby who would step in when a debuff got spread/refreshed. In practice that means that every dps has to take a few crystals.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Paoanii » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:35 pm

While I haven't tried this to see if it would work, in a recent brainstorming session with out raid leader, I came across an interesting idea. Power Auras can be setup to track debuffs on a focus target, as well as yourself, leading me to think there may be a way to set it up so that you have a crystal rotation involving all of your dps rather than just 4-5. While I haven't actually setup the aura yet, when I do I will edit this post to include it, it will basically pop up with an icon on your screen if your focus has torment/tormented and you don't (or in other words, when its your turn to take the crystal) and have each person focus the person ahead of them in the order.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby timoseewho » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:59 pm

While I haven't successfully done this fight, and am here to actually ask something about the fight myself. I'll try and help you OP, what other classes/specs do you have in your raid? And what are your healers? Shadow Priests are by far one of the better soakers just because of Dispersion, or a Druid with Barkskin can do too. However, having sufficient raid utility to help out this first soaker is HUGE too. For example, if you happen to have a holy Paladin, he can use Hand of Sacrifice, Aura Mastery, etc. or even a protection Paladin to use Divine Guardian.

Now I have some questions to you guys! My guild put in a few attempts tonight and are lucky enough to have a protection AND holy Paladin around with a shadow Priest too. We're using the Priest to soak the first completely and a Death Knight/Druid with a Warlock/Priest(that shadow one) doing a rotation with 3 backup DPS (yep, we're 2T/1H'ing it). Our tank is a protection Paladin and is he supposed to be able to survive off CD's alone while the 2 healers stack up Vital Sparks from the first shard? If so, how? My healers often find themselves not knowing what to do (ie. heal the tank or the soakers), what suggestions do you have? Should they just be taking turns healing the tank after the first shard? By the way, along with the holy P is a restoration Shaman. Thanks guys!
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Winkle » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:15 am

timoseewho wrote:Now I have some questions to you guys! My guild put in a few attempts tonight and are lucky enough to have a protection AND holy Paladin around with a shadow Priest too. We're using the Priest to soak the first completely and a Death Knight/Druid with a Warlock/Priest(that shadow one) doing a rotation with 3 backup DPS (yep, we're 2T/1H'ing it). Our tank is a protection Paladin and is he supposed to be able to survive off CD's alone while the 2 healers stack up Vital Sparks from the first shard? If so, how? My healers often find themselves not knowing what to do (ie. heal the tank or the soakers), what suggestions do you have? Should they just be taking turns healing the tank after the first shard? By the way, along with the holy P is a restoration Shaman. Thanks guys!


How on earth do you expect any tank to survive 25 seconds without any healing? Perhaps the tank could survive to the first blade on CD's alone + beacon heals but there's no way he's living through inferno. Plus by burning all tank CD's on the outset he'll have nothing left to cover later blades.

I realize you're trying to have both your healers stack high real fast at the start but i just don't think that's feasible.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:09 am

I've not done the fight on 10 man, but from 4 healing on 25 I'd say it's a) not feasible b) not necessary.

Not all spells proc vital flame - instant casts/hots especially tend not to, so the tank should be able to survive to the first blade with some CDs + riptide/earth shield while healers get stacks This means both healer should be able to at least get some sparks by the time the first blade occurs, which is around the time the first crystal soaker has 10-15 stacks. When the first blade occurs one healer (resto shaman in your case, probably) should switch to direct heals on the tank while the other continues to spam the soaker - whatever stacks the first tank healer has manage to accumulate should be sufficient to get through the first blade. After the first crystal despawns your hpala should have a ton of stacks and should be able to look after the tank for the next few crystals by themselves, while your shaman plays catch up on stacks with crystal healing.

When your priest's dispersion/other cds come back up you can use that to get another burst of stacks, which should see you through to the end of the fight. Healing the crystal soakers if you're only using two soakers per crystal requires more mana than healing the tank with high stacks outside of blades, so switch healers around based on mana situation/stack situation throughout the fight.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby fafhrd » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:36 am

timoseewho wrote:While I haven't successfully done this fight, and am here to actually ask something about the fight myself. I'll try and help you OP, what other classes/specs do you have in your raid? And what are your healers? Shadow Priests are by far one of the better soakers just because of Dispersion, or a Druid with Barkskin can do too. However, having sufficient raid utility to help out this first soaker is HUGE too. For example, if you happen to have a holy Paladin, he can use Hand of Sacrifice, Aura Mastery, etc. or even a protection Paladin to use Divine Guardian.

Now I have some questions to you guys! My guild put in a few attempts tonight and are lucky enough to have a protection AND holy Paladin around with a shadow Priest too. We're using the Priest to soak the first completely and a Death Knight/Druid with a Warlock/Priest(that shadow one) doing a rotation with 3 backup DPS (yep, we're 2T/1H'ing it). Our tank is a protection Paladin and is he supposed to be able to survive off CD's alone while the 2 healers stack up Vital Sparks from the first shard? If so, how? My healers often find themselves not knowing what to do (ie. heal the tank or the soakers), what suggestions do you have? Should they just be taking turns healing the tank after the first shard? By the way, along with the holy P is a restoration Shaman. Thanks guys!


Oh we killed it already, suppose I should have updated. Our comp was feral tank, Holy Pally and Resto Shaman healing, 2 spriests (one of which is normally a healer, but an extra dispersion is too amazing on this fight to give up), mage, lock, hunter, dk and another melee (so far for Bael it's been a 2nd DK).

One spriest takes the entire first crystal, using dispersion and a Spirit Link Totem (the positioning for this is a pain in the ass btw, wish we had a healing priest CD for it instead). I believe healing at this point is the pally bombing the spriest to rack up stacks, with beacon on the tank. Then the next spriest takes the next crystal I think with his dispersion, and one other dps helps finish it. I think the other spriest has a BH resistance trinket to help out as well. After that the dks, mage and lock help in rotation, when an spriest has dispersion up it's a 2 person crystal, when not it's usually a 3 person one. Depending on Countdown randomly resetting or spreading Tormented, people will rotate in and out, including the hunter, or if desperate the resto shaman.

Most of our wipes have been to the tank randomly falling over dead when the pally gets a Torment from countdown, or when he just fails to hit his dodge button hard enough during blades. I think we settled on the resto shaman refraining from tank healing as much as possible in order to build up some stacks, so she can cover the tank when something goes wrong or he's stuck in a blade with no cooldown and the pally tormented.

Since we're already beating the enrage, at some point we might switch to an extra tank or healer like on 25 currently just to get rid of the instability with tank survival on 1T2H. We need to get our warrior tank into the fight in some capacity anyway to get the shield. The crystal rotation is mostly up to communication and people using their heads about who will be available when, so assuming your raiders can figure that out eventually, keeping the tank alive is most of the fight. You need a lot of DPS too, but if you're 7dpsing it's not that bad, especially if you have a class or two that can buy you extra time after the enrage (we haven't had to on a kill attempt, but think we can manage a good 20s or so of extra time if we needed it).
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby timoseewho » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:12 am

I was unaware that instants/HoT's didn't proc Vital Flame. I'll double check and make sure healers know that tonight:). I just want to make sure our strategy is valid, is it the end of the world if BOTH healers don't manage to get 70+ Vital Sparks stacks from the first soak? To any of you who either have a protection Paladin tank or is one or knows much about it, is it better to stack dodge/parry or mastery for this fight? Or what's the priority? Thanks.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:05 am

Not all spells proc vital flame - instant casts/hots especially tend not to


I have been aware that HOTs don't proc, but I was under the impression that instant heals did proc flame, but I will read the discription and ask the healers for the group I tank for to watch for the instant casts to verify if they proc or not.

As a Holy Pally (on normal mode still but I assume the mechanic is the same), there are only 3 spells I cast on crystal folks: Holy Light (ugh), Holy Shock and WoG. If instant spells do not proc, then I am gaining 130+ stacks in a typical kill from Holy Light alone while healing 2 dps sharing crystals on my turn, and sometimes forgoing crystals to bomb tank heals. Given holy Light has a ~ 1.9 sec cast time most of the time I cannot believe that it could provide me so many stacks by itself. So unless Heroic has a different proc than normal, I am thinking instant heals probably do proc.

25 secs per crystal (5 secs for it to come out of the ground). 2 people sharing one ~ 12-13 stacks each or an average of 7 stacks over 25 secs. (1 + 13)/2 = 7 dps stacks on average. 25 secs / 1.9 secs = 12ish holy Light casts (maybe I could get 13 if i drop Holy Shock, WoG). 7 dps stacks on average may provide 3 heals stacks per cast (assuming 7/3 = 2.33 rounds upto 3) * 12 casts or ~ 35ish heal stacks per crystal which is actually about what I observe. So Maybe instant casts don't proc, which should lead me to change my healing strategy if true. I will definitely look into this some more.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Finkum » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:36 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:
Not all spells proc vital flame - instant casts/hots especially tend not to


I have been aware that HOTs don't proc, but I was under the impression that instant heals did proc flame, but I will read the discription and ask the healers for the group I tank for to watch for the instant casts to verify if they proc or not.


Whether or not a heal procs Vital Spark/Vital Flame depends on whether it is in the (somewhat arbitrary) category of "single-target direct heals." I'm 95% sure that Word of Glory/Holy Shock _do_ count, but equally that Holy Word: Serenity (the Holy Priest instant heal when in Serenity chakra) _doesn't_. PW:S doesn't either, although it may do so if glyphed. In any case, unless your raid comp has cooldowns available up the wazzoo I can't see it being practical for the tank to surive via HoTs/those few heals that don't proc Vital Flame for very long.

What is the average DPS required if you bring 6 DPS, rather than 7?
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby RedAces » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:17 am

Riptide does proc Vital Spark (and Flame) and recasting a hot on a tank should procc Vital Flame too (no?).
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Kishandra » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:01 am

RedAces wrote:Riptide does proc Vital Spark (and Flame) and recasting a hot on a tank should procc Vital Flame too (no?).


Because it's like regrowth in that there is an initial direct heal portion in the spell. Vital flame (and vital spark) are both very clear that only direct heals will stack it. All hots with no initial direct heal portion will not trigger either effect.

Which could be a good thing - your druid can refresh lifebloom on your tank on the last second he has that vital flame buff up and still be contributing decent amounts of healing to the tank while stacking his spark.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Jheherrin » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:26 am

I think these figures are correct.

Health (10Heroic) 69.9M
Enrage - 6 minutes

with 7 dps + tank (0.5dps) you need 26k from dps and 13k from tank
with 6 dps + tank you need 30k from dps and 15k from tank
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby Kishandra » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:35 am

Jheherrin wrote:I think these figures are correct.

Health (10Heroic) 69.9M
Enrage - 6 minutes

with 7 dps + tank (0.5dps) you need 26k from dps and 13k from tank
with 6 dps + tank you need 30k from dps and 15k from tank


It's fine for the boss to enrage at 5% or even a bit higher however; he'll still die if your dps pull off enough clutch evasions, deterrencex2/fd, mirror images, etc.
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Re: [10H] Baleroc

Postby timoseewho » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:02 am

Hello, so my guild gave it 1-2 hours of attempts on this buddy again last night with our best attempts hovering around 70%. Our wipes were usually because the tank just wasn't kept up and died (was usually blamed for not dodging enough) or soakers would die at 11-13 stacks. We're using 2 soak groups, one with a destruction/shadow(hunter backup) and the other with a frost Death Knight/balance(enhancement/arcane backup). We switched to a regular 3 soak rotation when a healer got tormented via Countdown and just had him heal the soakers.

We start the fight with the shadow soaking the whole first shard via CD's like Hand of Sacrifice, Aura Mastery, Divine Guardian, and Dispersion. During that first shard, when Torment hits around 9 on the guy, both healers pretty much switch to healing him full time to stack Vital Sparks with the protection Paladin surviving off his CD's like Holy Shield and Guardian of Ancient Kings. Our healers are a holy Paladin and a restoration Shaman.

In the beginning, we were having the tank dying before the first guy was done soaking, but we fixed that. However, the tank just doesn't seem to be able to survive consistently after the first shard. The main complaints were that the tank wasn't dodging enough and Greater Healing Wave spamming just didn't cut it. Another complaint was that doing a 2-soak just required TOO much mana. How are your healers doing this? And what's your setup? Are our healers or tank just not geared/skilled enough for this? If you heal this fight with any of these healing classes, can you please outline how you go abouts doing it (like the whole taking turns healing rotation)? Our healers have ilvl around 374.
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