The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

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The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Loras » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:40 pm

Hey all. If there's a similar topic, then I'm the blindest creature on the interwebzzz as I didn't find it. Anyway -

Looking from the perspective of a 6/7 (10 man) and 4/7 (25 man - bashing against Alysrazor atm) NORMAL mode raiding tank, I've been on the edge of switching to mastery gemming several times. I don't have much access to previous content HC gear, in fact all that I had was the 372 tier chest (which I am still using) and the 372 Halfus bracers (that I replaced recently for the VP ones). Also, our tank drops in this tier are just HORRIBLE (also - close to non-existant)...

What I had in mind was that you should go mastery gemming when you have a sufficient health pool AND you can reach the block cap. However, browsing the armory profiles of some high-progress maintankadins, I'm still biased. Some are gemming full stamina (I am still doing that as I dont have HC stamina trinkets and my health pool seemed low compared to our other tanks). Some are gemming full mastery. Others are gemming 40/67 mastery in yellow slots, but still filling blues with 60 stamina and reds with 20parry/30sta. Now, why I find it awkward - because nobody from these 3 groups seems to be block-capped in any case! Be it Mastery-gemmed people with mastery trinkets, or stamina-gemming people with mastery trinkets, they all seem to have, let's say, 30 combined avoidance, 60 block. That's 90 + 5 (miss chance) = 95%. You just can't reach 7 more % with raid buffs. What's the trick? :0

P.S. Answers like "who cares, it's normal modes, everything works" are not what I'm looking for. Thank you :)
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Kihra » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:32 pm

Loras wrote:Hey all. If there's a similar topic, then I'm the blindest creature on the interwebzzz as I didn't find it. Anyway -

Looking from the perspective of a 6/7 (10 man) and 4/7 (25 man - bashing against Alysrazor atm) NORMAL mode raiding tank, I've been on the edge of switching to mastery gemming several times. I don't have much access to previous content HC gear, in fact all that I had was the 372 tier chest (which I am still using) and the 372 Halfus bracers (that I replaced recently for the VP ones). Also, our tank drops in this tier are just HORRIBLE (also - close to non-existant)...

What I had in mind was that you should go mastery gemming when you have a sufficient health pool AND you can reach the block cap. However, browsing the armory profiles of some high-progress maintankadins, I'm still biased. Some are gemming full stamina (I am still doing that as I dont have HC stamina trinkets and my health pool seemed low compared to our other tanks). Some are gemming full mastery. Others are gemming 40/67 mastery in yellow slots, but still filling blues with 60 stamina and reds with 20parry/30sta. Now, why I find it awkward - because nobody from these 3 groups seems to be block-capped in any case! Be it Mastery-gemmed people with mastery trinkets, or stamina-gemming people with mastery trinkets, they all seem to have, let's say, 30 combined avoidance, 60 block. That's 90 + 5 (miss chance) = 95%. You just can't reach 7 more % with raid buffs. What's the trick? :0

P.S. Answers like "who cares, it's normal modes, everything works" are not what I'm looking for. Thank you :)


Be careful just staring at armories. For example I don't look block capped in the gear you see on my armory, but I have pieces I switch to when I want to be block capped. Swapping a Stamina trinket for a Mastery trinket and then using a Mastery elixir plus Mastery food will get you that 7%.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Loras » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:14 pm

Kihra wrote:Be careful just staring at armories. For example I don't look block capped in the gear you see on my armory, but I have pieces I switch to when I want to be block capped. Swapping a Stamina trinket for a Mastery trinket and then using a Mastery elixir plus Mastery food will get you that 7%.


Well it feels like it's a certain % missing WITH mastery trinkets. Or even more missing without them. And yes, of course I am considering the fact that they might have other pieces, but when it's 378/391 gear that is gemmed with mastery, I doubt they do have another, better piece to put in, hehe. Is every single tankadin out there using mastery elixirs on every try instead of the guild cauldron?

ANd also, as I said, what is considered the minimum health pool before you can aim for full CTC? (cause if I have 150k unbuffed, figuratively speaking, being block capped wont help that much)
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Torias » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:40 pm

I've no experience with 25 mans (and admittedly less progressed than you in 10, I raid with a group composed entirely of RL friends and friends of friends and only do about ~3 hours per week. We clear the content, just... slower) but I am fully gearing for Mastery, except for using Scales of Life rather than double mastery trinkets. That setup still leaves me over 100% total avoidance + block and 187k HP buffed up, using the stamina flask and seafood feast (about 98.6% and 161k unbuffed).

For what I've seen/done so far that's never once felt like I was "lacking" somehow. I have some bits and pieces I can swap around such as trinkets and even duplicate gear pieces for more than a handful of slots (perks of being the only plate tank on my team) and I can quite easily get over 102.4% if I feel like it would be a big help for something specific at the cost of about 6-7k HP, or I can get to around 200k HP at the cost of about 5.5% block and neither one of those actually feels like a particularly good trade, I'm in a nice "sweet spot", at least for the content I'm clearing and the healers I'm running with. Like I said, I don't know if coming from my position that's much use to you but I think the fact is that this debate comes a lot down to opinion and personal preference both on your part and that of your healers, except for in a couple of extreme cases that are easily dealt with by a spare trinket or two.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Loras » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:46 pm

Ok, another question - do you think that addon http://wowinterface.com/downloads/info2 ... Check.html uses correct formulas? I browsed for some spreadsheets, found the one on Righteous Defense, it was updated from what I read, but it gave totally odd numbers. First I didnt get the diminishing dodge/parry values - it said to put the armory (character sheet) dodge/parry values, and it gave me next to it some diminished numbers which were lower. And still it gave me like a 5% higher CTC number than that addon (and from what I checked, addon just sums up character sheet's dodge+parry+block+5%miss = total ctc). Is it how you do it (just sum up what you see) or there's another trick to it? Cause if addon's correct, I reach the cap without using elixir even! Just with mastery food! (elixir usage is suuuuuuuuuuuuuch a nuissance and annoying crap). Just wondering which last step to get to take me to the block cap - reforge Theck's Emberseal's dodge to mastery instead of hit-> mastery, or neglect a 15 stamina socket bonus and swap a 20mastery/30 stamina gem with a 40 mastery one. I'll probably go with reforging the Emberseal, as that'll also get me a little bit extra hit; Not being able to land a 3-HP shield slam for 20+ seconds is ugh... 159.5k hp unbuffed. Don't know if it's good or low.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Torias » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:58 pm

Just adding up what you see on the sheet is fine. The numbers include diminishing returns, it's the the tooltip number that is undiminished. :)

I use Ardent Defender for keeping track of that at a glance when I'm messing with gear, as some nice combat review stuff built in too such as showing you the total amount of damage you blocked and your number of dodges, parries, etc. in a fight. I'd check it out if I were you. :)
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:12 pm

You can be pretty much completely stam gemmed and hit block cap with consumables if you've had good luck with heroic tank loot (esp beth trink obviously). With non-heroic gear you'd still need to use a fair bit of mastery gemming. My regular block cap set puts me at 202-203k hp raid buffed, think that's all straight stam bar 2-3 hybrid gems. And yes, I've used mastery elixirs/food for almost every pull of this expansion (90 resistance elixir is awesome on a lot of fights, so I'd rather gear around elixirs than flasks). And the set I'm logged out in is also block capped with raid buffs, but sounds fairly close to your 30a/60b/scenario, so you're probably underestimating the block from consumables/raid buffs.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Arveinruz » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:17 am

Try this AddOn: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/broker_unhittable.aspx

Nice thing is you can choose Bosslevel, so if you set it to lvl88 it will calculate towards 100% instead of 102,4% - I find it a bit more intuitive.
It also updates quite fast, so you'll notice Windwalker procs or a missing buff.
(I check it before pull to see if I have all buffs - I know it should show 100,06% in my blockcapped gear)

Try to see the elixir not as a nuisance but as a kind of '3rd trinket slot' for very flexible CTC juggling - 2 mastery trinkets (359) + elixir provide a whopping 11% CTC but can be easily traded for stamina as well as hit/exp depending on the encounter.

I've been blockcapped (with around 140k HP ub iirc) since quite early in this expansion with 2 mastery trinkets, mastery elixir and food (been laughed at by all other progression tanks on my realm about the SP-use on my Soul Casket, but I just couldn't get myself to do another month of TB dailies^^) and my healers loved me inspite of my low health pool, so don't worry - if you have the gear to block cap, your HP will be ok.
Now I can even blockcap with flask/feast and starting to regem towards stamina with every FL-drop I get.

Make sure to get revered with Avengers as soon as possible - you could even take the mastery/agi-on-use trinket for your second slot if that damn spider won't give you his Spindle.
Even consider joining Trash-run to boost reputation if needed...
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Durability » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:24 pm

My pally's block capped in worse gear than you have available (no FL boss drops or H T11 items), and I saw an enormous jump in my survivability as I approached and reached it. I can't really see what benefit stam stacking would have, especially for normal modes, with the possible exception of Baleroc. You're not usually in a position to get gibbed on normal modes, and block cap dramatically increases your worst-case TTL.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Selcouth » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:09 am

Arveinruz wrote:and my healers loved me inspite of my low health pool, so don't worry


That's something i can confirm.^^
I have with only one 391 Item the Cap reached (with HP Flask and Mastery Food) and now i have only 166k HP unbuffed.
When the other Tanks in your guild aren't well informed about CTC they will laugh about you, but when they are they will think, especially the Warrior with their 1.5% Block for each Mastery, "OMG, he's so much further than me in his Gear" and Healer will love you because u get constant lower Damage and not some insane 150k DMG spikes causing your Healers Heart attacks.
If im saying weird things correct me PLEASE. I`m from Germany and don`t know it better.^^
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Dane » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:34 am

Loras wrote: Is every single tankadin out there using mastery elixirs on every try instead of the guild cauldron?
)



Yes...every try for both me, and my DK co-tank. Lavascale Minestrone vs. Feast too.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:30 pm

I can't really see what benefit stam stacking would have, especially for normal modes, with the possible exception of Baleroc.


I'm not certain why you want to go Stam for Baleroc, I put on as much avoidance as I can for him. You can reliably get 3 stacks off the boss prior to the first Blades ability, which should put any raid tank comfortably over 250k health. The decimation blades are not mitigateable, its either 90% health or avoided. Stacking stam just means that the healers have to work harder as your stacks and health pool increase, whereas stacking avoidance means potentially avoided Blades abilities.

Baleroc is one of the few encoutners where I go avoidance, going from about 22% dodge/parry to 29% while sacrificing like18% block or something. For most other bosses I usually stick with Mastery. For Alysrazor I actually put on a few ret pieces (360 gear Mastery tank set atm) to insure I can kill the firechicken before the tornado phase, without relying on dps too much for help.
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Bladesong » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:35 pm

The anecdotal evidence: since I swapped to mastery gearing, my healers claim that I am much easier to heal than our other pally tank, who is in similar gear but still uses stam gems and a stam trinket (he has 14k more unbuffed health than me). We are currently 7 of 7 normal 10, but only one Ragnaros kill and it was messy as hell with only one hunter surviving. I'm Bladesong@Uldaman.

The practical advice: If you have the gold, try re-gearing to mastery and see what your healers have to say. Your healers' opinions, based on the actual experience of trying to keep you alive, should trump most other opinions :wink:
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:47 pm

Bladesong wrote:The practical advice: If you have the gold, try re-gearing to mastery and see what your healers have to say. Your healers' opinions, based on the actual experience of trying to keep you alive, should trump most other opinions :wink:


This. Talk to your healers, but also take metrics (World of Logs parses and the like).
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Re: The stamina "gap" before moving on to mastery gemming?

Postby Draslin » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:29 am

I am a big proponent of mastery stacking for all non-trivial content that hits hard. The additional 31% of full time physical damage reduction is equivalent to something like 22000 armor, and the spikyness it removes helps to make your healers' lives easier and more able to split attention between tank and raid heals, which as you can imagine is a huge help in 10 man raids.

My co-tank is a DK who also stacks mastery. We both go through 2 stacks of mastery elixirs and lavascale minestrone a week (the HP flask and Feast Buff just aren't worth it).

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