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Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Marimmar » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:44 am

I had it twice on Zul'jin that my RF didn't seem to work at all and Omen showed that although I had judged Crusader, active Wings, and all aggro spells I was quickly passed down the Ranks by our casters whereas normally I have immediately about double the Aggro of our spriest, according to Omen.
Needless to say it was a wipe, next time aggro was normal again.
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Postby Steve » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:50 am

Oriax wrote:Just to add my own small experience of this threat-issue, regardless if it's RF or whatever causing it.

The non-elites that spawn on Solarian, everytime they just ran right through/past my Consecration in front of our raid, totally disregarding me.


My understanding is that the Solarian adds spawn with a small, but non trivial amount of aggro on random members of the raid. A shield toss will get you enough threat to get to the top of the aggro list, but a tick of consecrate won't.
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Testing

Postby Zonzede » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:03 am

OK, I did some testing with a shaman today. I do not have Stoicism or any other dispel resist ability. I do have Improved Righteous Fury.

First, at full mana I cast RF, noting the double mana issue. I then put on Blessing of Sanctuary. I had the Shaman cast purge on me once. Sometimes it would remove Righteous Fury, but not the Blessing. Sometimes it would remove the blessing, but not RF. Sometimes, both buffs disappeared. Each outcome had roughly the same rate.

Then, I replaced casting RF with a Seal of Righteousness. Every time, purge hit both my seal and Blessing.

Then, I reduced my mana to 1000, and cast RF, noting the normal mana cost single cast. I then cast Blessings on myself. Every time, both buffs got purged.


So, I'm thinking that for game code purposes Righteous Fury is actually casting a second magic buff on you. While it doesn't show up on your buff bar, it is still there and noted by the game itself. This second buff may be the source of our bonus threat gain. If it is not being applied due to low mana or some other bug, we may have the culprit.
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Postby kalbear » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:36 am

I don't think so. That explains some of the things (why, for instance, a paladin was on top of threat but still had aggro drawn) but not others (why a paladin is producing less aggro).

For the less aggro, I have a hunch that consecrate ticks are just not working as planned against some bosses some of the time. They changed the consecrate and hitbox mechanics recently to supposedly fix this, but my suspicion is that they broke it for some cases. Not all, but some. Until someone actually produces a combat log that indicates this, however, it's hard to say.

What we really need is actual hard-core testing on this to see when a paladin is losing aggro and why.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:51 pm

Marimmar wrote:I had it twice on Zul'jin that my RF didn't seem to work at all and Omen showed that although I had judged Crusader, active Wings, and all aggro spells I was quickly passed down the Ranks by our casters whereas normally I have immediately about double the Aggro of our spriest, according to Omen.
Needless to say it was a wipe, next time aggro was normal again.


Again, if RF is bugged the resulting lower threat will not show up on any threat meter. Threat meters do not know what your threat actually is, they simply calculate what your threat should be. If RF is bugged, the only way a meter could help you see it, is if the meter indicated you were tops in threat, but you still lost aggro.

The situation you described can not possibly be caused by a bugged RF.
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Re: Testing

Postby Morpheren » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:32 pm

Zonzede wrote:So, I'm thinking that for game code purposes Righteous Fury is actually casting a second magic buff on you. While it doesn't show up on your buff bar, it is still there and noted by the game itself. This second buff may be the source of our bonus threat gain. If it is not being applied due to low mana or some other bug, we may have the culprit.


This is not the case. ANYtime I tank I cast RF until I have less than 1300 mana (to be safe) right click the buff to dispell, and then recast making sure it uses the appropriate amount of mana. Never had any issues with it this way, although I have had issues with doing full mana "double casts".
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Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:39 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Threat meters do not know what your threat actually is


MODS ARE MAGIC.
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Postby Ashkicker » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:12 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Again, if RF is bugged the resulting lower threat will not show up on any threat meter. Threat meters do not know what your threat actually is, they simply calculate what your threat should be. If RF is bugged, the only way a meter could help you see it, is if the meter indicated you were tops in threat, but you still lost aggro.

The situation you described can not possibly be caused by a bugged RF.


This actually depends on what the threatmeter uses to calculate the threat, we already can tell that threat meters can determine if we have RF up or not, so if the meter looks for that 2nd, invisible buff to know that it should be adding the extra threat for all of our holy dmg and doesn't see it, the threat meter will then not give us the extra threat.
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Postby jere » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:16 am

Ashkicker wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Again, if RF is bugged the resulting lower threat will not show up on any threat meter. Threat meters do not know what your threat actually is, they simply calculate what your threat should be. If RF is bugged, the only way a meter could help you see it, is if the meter indicated you were tops in threat, but you still lost aggro.

The situation you described can not possibly be caused by a bugged RF.


This actually depends on what the threatmeter uses to calculate the threat, we already can tell that threat meters can determine if we have RF up or not, so if the meter looks for that 2nd, invisible buff to know that it should be adding the extra threat for all of our holy dmg and doesn't see it, the threat meter will then not give us the extra threat.


Nope. It can't tell the difference between the untalented and the talented buff. All it can tell is that you have "a" RF buff up and it can tell that you are spec'd into 3/3 improved RF, so it will assume your buff is the improved one.
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Postby Morpheum » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:30 am

This actually depends on what the threatmeter uses to calculate the threat, we already can tell that threat meters can determine if we have RF up or not, so if the meter looks for that 2nd, invisible buff to know that it should be adding the extra threat for all of our holy dmg and doesn't see it, the threat meter will then not give us the extra threat.


This sounds like a plausible explanation. If there are two buffs, the visible buff which acts only as a marker and an invisible buff which actually modifies the threat, then Blizzard might have coded things so that a check for the presence of RF returns a positive iff the invisible buff is up.

If this is the case, it should be possible to make a mod to check for the presence of the "real" RF. Get a screenshot of the visible RF buff up with the mod reporting that the "real" buff is not up, and we would have a smoking gun.

In other words, this hypothesis is very testable. I don't have the skills to code a test myself, but someone here might.
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Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:13 am

Morpheum wrote:
This actually depends on what the threatmeter uses to calculate the threat, we already can tell that threat meters can determine if we have RF up or not, so if the meter looks for that 2nd, invisible buff to know that it should be adding the extra threat for all of our holy dmg and doesn't see it, the threat meter will then not give us the extra threat.


This sounds like a plausible explanation. If there are two buffs, the visible buff which acts only as a marker and an invisible buff which actually modifies the threat, then Blizzard might have coded things so that a check for the presence of RF returns a positive iff the invisible buff is up.

If this is the case, it should be possible to make a mod to check for the presence of the "real" RF. Get a screenshot of the visible RF buff up with the mod reporting that the "real" buff is not up, and we would have a smoking gun.

In other words, this hypothesis is very testable. I don't have the skills to code a test myself, but someone here might.


It's not plausible, buffs don't have a visible attribute. You are either buffed or you are not.

Threat1.0 which is what Omen and many aced based unit frame mods use, does not check for multiple occurences of RF. It does a loop through all the buffs you have and stops when it finds any occurence of RF.
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Postby jere » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:00 pm

And again, I don't think there is a way for the API to tell the difference between having regular RF and improved aside from looking at your talents and the existance of a RF buff, so if it is putting the unimproved version up, but you have talents in improved, I would guess mods would be unable to detect that since it would think you have the improved up due to your talents.
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Postby Hankthetank » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:11 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Morpheum wrote:This sounds like a plausible explanation. If there are two buffs, the visible buff which acts only as a marker and an invisible buff which actually modifies the threat, then Blizzard might have coded things so that a check for the presence of RF returns a positive iff the invisible buff is up.

If this is the case, it should be possible to make a mod to check for the presence of the "real" RF. Get a screenshot of the visible RF buff up with the mod reporting that the "real" buff is not up, and we would have a smoking gun.

In other words, this hypothesis is very testable. I don't have the skills to code a test myself, but someone here might.


It's not plausible, buffs don't have a visible attribute. You are either buffed or you are not.

Threat1.0 which is what Omen and many aced based unit frame mods use, does not check for multiple occurences of RF. It does a loop through all the buffs you have and stops when it finds any occurence of RF.


Just as a reference, not all buffs are visible. Warrior stances, for instance, are "buffs", but never show as a buff. However, there were several cases in the past where, if you went over the 32-buff limit, a warrior could get pushed into a 4th "non-stance" which would then clear their action bar, reduce how much threat they were generating, and remove their ability to use several abilities.

There is also the more obvious case of Draenei racials. Their +hit racial aura affects themselves, but if you roll one, it won't show as a constant buff for you.

In addition, several "Chance on Hit" items, in the past (I'm not sure if this has changed), would put an unseen buff on the player. This was discovered during the testing that warriors did when they encountered the 32-buff limit and were trying to figure out what all counted as buffs.

So, no, not all buffs are visible.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:16 pm

Hankthetank wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Morpheum wrote:This sounds like a plausible explanation. If there are two buffs, the visible buff which acts only as a marker and an invisible buff which actually modifies the threat, then Blizzard might have coded things so that a check for the presence of RF returns a positive iff the invisible buff is up.

If this is the case, it should be possible to make a mod to check for the presence of the "real" RF. Get a screenshot of the visible RF buff up with the mod reporting that the "real" buff is not up, and we would have a smoking gun.

In other words, this hypothesis is very testable. I don't have the skills to code a test myself, but someone here might.


It's not plausible, buffs don't have a visible attribute. You are either buffed or you are not.

Threat1.0 which is what Omen and many aced based unit frame mods use, does not check for multiple occurences of RF. It does a loop through all the buffs you have and stops when it finds any occurence of RF.


Just as a reference, not all buffs are visible. Warrior stances, for instance, are "buffs", but never show as a buff. However, there were several cases in the past where, if you went over the 32-buff limit, a warrior could get pushed into a 4th "non-stance" which would then clear their action bar, reduce how much threat they were generating, and remove their ability to use several abilities.

There is also the more obvious case of Draenei racials. Their +hit racial aura affects themselves, but if you roll one, it won't show as a constant buff for you.

In addition, several "Chance on Hit" items, in the past (I'm not sure if this has changed), would put an unseen buff on the player. This was discovered during the testing that warriors did when they encountered the 32-buff limit and were trying to figure out what all counted as buffs.

So, no, not all buffs are visible.


Not exactly, buffs do not have a visible attribute, buffs that can be queried are neither visible nor invisible. If someone writes a mod (which can easily be done) to display an icon when you are in defensive stance, the effect of the buff does not change simply because now you "see" a buff. There is no coupling to whether or not a buff has an icon to represent it on a buff frame, to the effect the buff has.

The API exposes a list of buffs to mod writers and the default UI, which can choose whether or not to display them. The only thing the buff API has knowledge of in terms of visibility is the texture, some buffs may not have one, but RF does.

Now, I have no doubt that there are some truely hidden buffs, buffs that are not exposed to the UI, just like some items and enchants have hidden cooldowns that are also not exposed. They won't be displayed because they can't be detected. However, in the context of this conversation that is moot, because they would also not be detected by a threat meter.
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Re: Testing

Postby Dianora » Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:09 pm

Zonzede wrote:OK, I did some testing with a shaman today. I do not have Stoicism or any other dispel resist ability. I do have Improved Righteous Fury.

First, at full mana I cast RF, noting the double mana issue. I then put on Blessing of Sanctuary. I had the Shaman cast purge on me once. Sometimes it would remove Righteous Fury, but not the Blessing. Sometimes it would remove the blessing, but not RF. Sometimes, both buffs disappeared. Each outcome had roughly the same rate.

Then, I replaced casting RF with a Seal of Righteousness. Every time, purge hit both my seal and Blessing.

Then, I reduced my mana to 1000, and cast RF, noting the normal mana cost single cast. I then cast Blessings on myself. Every time, both buffs got purged.


So, I'm thinking that for game code purposes Righteous Fury is actually casting a second magic buff on you. While it doesn't show up on your buff bar, it is still there and noted by the game itself. This second buff may be the source of our bonus threat gain. If it is not being applied due to low mana or some other bug, we may have the culprit.


Due to this post, I've become mindful of re-applying RF while at or near full mana. Just to be on the safe side.
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